Jhana

meh_

For me - an ever questioning and skeptical being, I feel that experiencing jhanic meditation/a deeper state of absorption just once will really help me to see things as they are, and get some sort of idea of not-self etc. instead of relying on what I read etc.

Does anyone have any experiences they can share?

Victorious

Jhana has nothing to do directly with awareness of self. It is a way to focus the mind in an extreme fashion.

There are many buddhist and nonbuddhist groups involved in cultivating jhana. You could join one if you like. Google!

But again Jhana has nothing to directly do with "seeing through" the self illusion.

/Victor

Cloud

try http://www.metta.lk/english/ways-jhana.htm

Victorious

If you want to exceede the self illusion for a while Breathing meditation is good. Worked for me.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html

Just do it... .

ptbb had a really good link to a walkthrough.


/Victor

Victorious

By the way I must say after reading some of your posts since you got to newbuddhist, you are really walking more or less the exact mental path as I did to get where I am today.

What is bothering me is that you are doing it in a couple of weeks. Maybe it is a good thing and I am only (a little) envious of your mental progress but maybe sometimes you need to slow down and let things settle for a while before getting on with the next step? Maybe find a teacher to show you meditation?

In the beginning I had a lot of teachers to guide me and explain what I felt and experienced and what to do and what not to.

Unguided meditaion can be dangerous and lead to depression and even mental deceses.

What you are attempting to do is pretty advanced. Just so you know.




Good luck in any case.

DhammaDhatu

If you want to exceede the self illusion...Worked for me.

Are you declaring, you are enlightened? OMG! Did you see your past lives?

:bowdown:

Victorious

Some pointers if you decide to try it on your own.

Dont meditate with negative emotions. Clear your head of them first. Do not push yourself if you feel uncomfortable.

Sit in a comfortable position. The trick is to balance the position so you do not have pain and do not fall asleep.

Start slow. Only 5-15 min to begin with. Do not get angry with yourself if you fail any goals you have. Just get back to practise as fast as you can with a calm mind.

If you start feeling depressed or have any other negative effects of the meditation stop and get help.


Good luck.

Victor

Victorious

If you want to exceede the self illusion...Worked for me.

Are you declaring, you are enlightened?

:bowdown:

No. Not Enlightened yet. Just skipped the illusion of self for some heartbeats. How about you?

DhammaDhatu

I feel that experiencing jhanic meditation/a deeper state of absorption just once will really help me to see things as they are, and get some sort of idea of not-self etc.

To reach jhana is unnecessary. The mind can experience 'not-self' much prior to jhana.

A stream-enterer has experienced 'not-self'. The mind must simply let go.

For example, some people are very selfish. They are always concerned with themself. Where as other people are very unselfish, always concerned with others and being generous.

Meditation is the same. To experience 'not-self', the mind first stop thinking about 'self' & in terms of 'self'. The mind must stop being like the selfish child always wanting "me", "me", "me".

So, imo, the "me" or "I" that wants to experience jhana is not really the way.

Imo, the mind must learn to drop the "me" and "I" from the very beginning.

The "me" and "I" is dropped by dropping "craving". Imo, the wish for jhana is craving.

Best wishes

DhammaDhatu

4:30 to 5:48, especially

meh_

There is no buddhist teacher available to me unfortunately
But my meditation at the moment:

Last night I meditated for about 30 minutes - which is longer than I usually do, but after I stop counting my breaths - and just observe them, I don't seem to get anywhere, it just seems to lose its focus, or purpose.

Cloud

@meh_, After you've been meditating for a while, start to let go of the world of hearing, seeing, feeling, smelling or tasting. Just sorta detach, remaining aware of your breath. You might start having a pleasant sensation. Notice it. Keep watching it; don't force anything, but watch as the mind seeks that pleasure and relishes in it (this is the nature of the mind, seeking happiness). It may become very intense and then envelop the entirety of your awareness. At that point, all of the mental faculties are focused upon one thing, working together, with that blissful feeling as their object.

I was actually looking for a guide after typing the above, and found one at http://www.ehow.com/how_2104385_enter-jhana.html that closely mirrors what I said. Not exactly, but close. It's not all that difficult, at least the first jhana, but neither is it "special" so don't take it as any kind of attainment. It will teach you something about your mind that you need to see directly, not just have conventional understanding.

Good luck!

DairyLama

. Imo, the wish for jhana is craving.

I disagree. In the suttas jhana is repeatedly described as a pre-cursor to insight, and it is part of a natural progression in the anapanasati practice.
"Craving" for particular experiences in meditation is clearly unskillful, but this should not be confused with wishing to practice correctly.

P

DairyLama

Last night I meditated for about 30 minutes - which is longer than I usually do, but after I stop counting my breaths - and just observe them, I don't seem to get anywhere, it just seems to lose its focus, or purpose.

You might find it helpful to focus on a particular spot like the nostrils.

P

Sabre

Dear meh_

I know you are new to this. It's very important to set reasonable goals in meditation. Don't expect to get enlightened within a day. Just meditate, try to get a bit more peaceful and focused. Meditation has a lot of advantages even if you are just a beginner.

Absorption is not agreed upon by all teachers to be necessary to realize the dhamma, some even say they are not important at all, so keep that in the back of your head. Just find a sense of peace and inner happiness within yourself. If you can gently focus on one in-breath and one out-breath without being distracted, you are already a very experienced meditator. Or even half of an in-breath to start with. It's the way there that already gives a lot of valuable insights, because to get there you already have to let go of a lot of craving. And sometimes strange stuff just happens out of nowhere from which you can learn a lot.

Smile, be patient, that is really important. Don't think everybody is a very skilled meditator, has realized absorptions and all kind of 'supernatural' states and you don't. This is not true. In fact these states are very hard to reach and can even be lost. The mind just does what it wants basically and that's what you've got to work with, it is all in this moment, make it count.

meh_

The more I have meditated, and the more I experience life (after discovering buddhism) - the more I notice just how much craving I actually have, that I didn't realise. But you say meditation has a lot of advantages for a beginner - do the benefits gained carry over into day to day life? such as greater clarity of the mind? and more ability to concentrate?

But as regards the practice - I stop counting once I feel that I'm into it enough. From there I should try to single pointedly focus on the breath touching one part of my nose - and bring my attention back to this when it wanders.

Victorious

There is no buddhist teacher available to me unfortunately
But my meditation at the moment:

Not to worry. There are tons of littliture on the subject.

Last night I meditated for about 30 minutes - which is longer than I usually do, but after I stop counting my breaths - and just observe them, I don't seem to get anywhere, it just seems to lose its focus, or purpose.

There is so much to say meh_ but basically most of it is in the sutta in my original post. Here is a part of it.

"Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns, 'I am making a long turn,' or when making a short turn discerns, 'I am making a short turn'; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long' ... He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

Just focusing on the breath is not the main part. It is good for focus training but then there is all the rest. Read about it on the link I gave you earlier.

Start with focusing on the breath then do some of the other "excersies". If you loose focus just start anew or continue from where you were.

What does your mind settle on when you loose focus?

The Walkthrough I was talking about is this one
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html

Compare it to the sutta I provided earlier. Basically that is all you need.

This path is not limited to Anatta experience. It is kind of a inofficial stop on the way. As I understand it from reading the text that path described goes all the way.

meh_

Also, cloud - with regard to that eHow post - After a while I do start to feel slightly numb - as in 'ive been sitting here for 30 minutes' kind of numb - or does it mean, the sort of numbness you get when you enter sleep paralysis.

Victorious

The more I have meditated, and the more I experience life (after discovering buddhism) - the more I notice just how much craving I actually have, that I didn't realise. But you say meditation has a lot of advantages for a beginner - do the benefits gained carry over into day to day life? such as greater clarity of the mind? and more ability to concentrate?

Yes it does in due time. Dont worry about it it will come gradually.

But as regards the practice - I stop counting once I feel that I'm into it enough. From there I should try to single pointedly focus on the breath touching one part of my nose - and bring my attention back to this when it wanders.

Yes but that is only the beginning. When you can keep that focus for some time then the real cultivation begins.

Sabre

The more I have meditated, and the more I experience life (after discovering buddhism) - the more I notice just how much craving I actually have, that I didn't realise. But you say meditation has a lot of advantages for a beginner - do the benefits gained carry over into day to day life? such as greater clarity of the mind? and more ability to concentrate?

It probably will, at least some advantages from it. One of them is you can always return to it if you get a bit upset about something. It has been researched, you can increase your happiness by meditation.



But again, don't expect immediate results. Meditation is a slow process.

meh_

Victorious, firstly thanks for all of your replies in here
When I say lose my focus, I don't specifically think about something, there is just this underlying layer of random thoughts about random things...and sometimes, if I am not paying attention - I will lose my place when I am counting, for example I might be counting 3-3, 4-4, and it's as though they merge together or something - because I lost my concentration. I end up mentally holding an image of the number in my head as I count - to make sure I don't forget it (is that okay to do by the way). After a complete cycle, it becomes a lot easier to focus, and thats not really necassary. Probably a lot of the reason I find it so hard to focus is because I meditate a couple of minutes after coming of my computer.

You say to start with the breathing excercises and then to move on, but when do you move on?

Sabre

Dear meh_

Try to find the silence between thoughts. Don't worry about doing it wrong, everybody starts of with a waterfall-mind as we call it. You are analyzing what is happening afterward, that is very good, but don't try to worry and fight while meditating.

Coming straight from a computer you might still have a very active mind. It might be worthwhile to also do some 'inbetween-meditation' like drinking tea or something. Just drink tea with all your gentle focus on it. And really taste it, try to find new taste sensations. That can be a very good way to get the mind smoother.

You might like to try some guided meditations:
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1835/

I am a fan of Gil Fronsdal personally. He can explain it all much better than I can anyway.

Sabre

fedaalis

When I say lose my focus, I don't specifically think about something, there is just this underlying layer of random thoughts about random things...

I have experienced something like that before in my practice. Sometimes when this happens, there is some sort of tension in the mind that is unnoticed that sort of prevents you from really settling into the present moment. Maybe try holding your whole body in your awareness as well as the breath, this helps because you can find that tension in your body, try to study it and see if you can let it go.

Hope that is helpful

Victorious

You say to start with the breathing excercises and then to move on, but when do you move on?

Do not put too much emphasis on when. Try it out. If you loose focus then return to the awareness of breathing.

Work in circles. Starting with the breathing then moving on and then return to only awareness of breathing again. Then again start something else. Experiment.

The breathing is the centre of it in any case. Forget about the numbers. They are only the third wheel while learning to bicycle.

You must learn how to balance the mind. Not too much agitation and not too much drowsieness.

Calm the mind by reading an inspiring book before meditation.

/Victor

Sabre

When I say lose my focus, I don't specifically think about something, there is just this underlying layer of random thoughts about random things...

I have experienced something like that before in my practice. Sometimes when this happens, there is some sort of tension in the mind that is unnoticed that sort of prevents you from really settling into the present moment. Maybe try holding your whole body in your awareness as well as the breath, this helps because you can find that tension in your body, try to study it and see if you can let it go.

Hope that is helpful

Ah yes, sometimes I have this too. Just thoughts and mental images going. Usually they die out after a while. The body thing is a good tip.

DhammaDhatu

I disagree. In the suttas jhana is repeatedly described as a pre-cursor to insight, and it is part of a natural progression in the anapanasati practice.

A "pre-cursor" to insight does not necessarily mean it is separate from the core teachings.

Without abandoning craving, attachment & self thinking, there will be no jhana.

The Dhammapada states there is no jhana without wisdom & no wisdom with jhana.

In other words, jhana is a pre-cursor to insight & some insight is a pre-cursor to jhana.

The Buddha has stated unambiguously in MN 117, about the noble right concentration, that right view is the "forerunner".

Your assertion of "repeatedly described" is an exaggeration. The suttas do not repeatedly describe what you are asserting. Instead, the suttas repeatedly describe the abandoning of craving, attachment & self thinking.

In my view, the sentiment or flavour of your post I disagree with.

All the best

DhammaDhatu

In the suttas jhana is repeatedly described as a pre-cursor to insight, and it is part of a natural progression in the anapanasati practice.

The Maha-Rahulovada Sutta well describes the pre-cursor to the anapanasati practice.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html

Jeffrey

I hope this isn't felt as a hijack but I had a question as well. When is it appropriate to acknowledge that you have experienced jhana? I have had a pleasurable meditation and I cannot explain how I was able to achieve it. I imagine it could be counterproductive if I say tell a beginning meditator who is suffering a mental ailment that I achieved Jhana they may get discouraged if they get a different result. Moreover I myself don't know how to repeat that. I had felt that a lot of negativity was cleaned out sort of an overlap of a lot of cycles of pollution/cleaning where I had a clean house.

Cloud

Why say it at all? We talk about what it is, how to experience it (giving info on it)... not at all required to make it personal. Some people get weird about it, so unless you have to get personal it's probably best to keep it impersonal. It's nothing all that special, perhaps difficult without guidance from a teacher, but any kind of attitude that it's an attainment/achievement is generally frowned upon as being a lack of humility. Not saying that's right or wrong, but that's the way a lot of people feel about it (hence why it's "taboo").

For instance I'd like to help people with their questions about jhana if I can, but have never felt the need to say what my experiences have been if any. They're only experiences; impermanent, not-self and ultimately unsatisfactory.

Vincenzi

If you want to exceede the self illusion...Worked for me.

Are you declaring, you are enlightened? OMG! Did you see your past lives?

:bowdown:

understanding anatta is not the equivalent ot nirvana, it is just one of the first fetters in the four stages.
someone who doesn't have the self illusion and understands anatta (plus 2 other broken fetters) is a srotapanna not a buddha.

...and remembering past lives is not closely related to this stages.

Victorious

If you want to exceede the self illusion...Worked for me.

Are you declaring, you are enlightened? OMG! Did you see your past lives?

:bowdown:

understanding anatta is not the equivalent ot nirvana, it is just one of the first fetters in the four stages.
someone who doesn't have the self illusion and understands anatta (plus 2 other broken fetters) is a srotapanna not a buddha.

...and remembering past lives is not closely related to this stages.

DD is just trying to be funny. We got this hate hate thing going... .

/Victor

Victorious

You say to start with the breathing excercises and then to move on, but when do you move on?

Do not put too much emphasis on when. Try it out. If you loose focus then return to the awareness of breathing.

Work in circles. Starting with the breathing then moving on and then return to only awareness of breathing again. Then again start something else. Experiment.

The breathing is the centre of it in any case. Forget about the numbers. They are only the third wheel while learning to bicycle.

You must learn how to balance the mind. Not too much agitation and not too much drowsieness.

Calm the mind by reading an inspiring book before meditation.

/Victor

Oh yes this working in circles is also a beginner thing and good sometimes when you are too unfocused to stay on one track. Later on you do not need it anymore.

/Victor

DairyLama

Without abandoning craving, attachment & self thinking, there will be no jhana.
In other words, jhana is a pre-cursor to insight & some insight is a pre-cursor to jhana.

Traditionally the jhanas depend on a temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances. They are refined states of concentration ( samadhi ) which are the basis for insight.
What I was challenging was your assertion that "the wish for jhana is craving".

P