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what do you believe
well the title of the thread speaks for itself what do you guys believe?
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Do you have tangible proof of what occurs after death?
that is my truth....
No.
There are Ultimate Truths, truths that transcend mere views and opinions.
Three of these should be very familar--dukkha, anicca, and anatta...
If you truly believe the teachings of the Buddha that is.
Jason
P.S. They can all be easily tested. The Buddha gives us countless examples of ways in which we can truly see for ourselves. Try anicca (impermanence), for example. All conditioned things are taught to be impermanent. Now, if this were not true then we could all live forever, right? So, to prove this Truth "wrong", simply do not die.
No, but does anyone? Do you?
I've posted this before but it's still one of my favourite zen stories :
A monk and his master are talking -
Monk - "What happens after we die?"
Master - "I don't know"
Monk - "But you're a zen master..."
Master - "Yes, but not a dead one!"
If you are asking what we (or rather I) believe happens when we die then that is a different matter entirely. I believe that when I die that is it, there is no enduring soul that goes on to heaven or reincarnated (as per Hindu belief). There is something that rejoins the Universal Consciousness/Buddha Mind/call it what you will, ready to be reborn at some point (unless I get Enlightened before I pop my clogs!!) but not a soul that remains unchanging. I've heard it likened to a wave on the ocean, once it breaks on the beach it merges back into the sea ready to become a new wave. The new wave is not the same as the old one, nor is it entirely different though, being created from the same sea.
I'm sure someone will be along that can explain this better than me !
I don't have the answer. I only have a path of seeking I am comfortable with. That path includes learning from others, listening with an open mind and then looking inward. At this moment I believe it is the best path for me
Only on the physical plane.
We rot. We decompose.
Or we sit as dry grey powder in a little pretty jar.
And we're dead a whole lot longer than we were alive.
Tell you what, I'll make you a deal. Whoever gets there first writes back to tell the other one.... How's that?
Until then.....
You got me!
when I die I will go to Heaven... Heaven ( the PERFECT place ) is where my creater is... of course if some are buddhist and all they do is want to respawn once they die trying to be a good person.. gaining the nirvana life... is kind of pointless.. no I am not saying trying to be a good person is pointless but what I am saying wanting to get to nirvana is.
when I was baptized I was reborn ( spiritually reborn )... the truth of the matter is there is no reincarnation.
But I can't help thinking you've kind of crept in by the back door, and made a small and meaningful attempt to be a bit sneaky about who you are and what you practise.
This above all:
To thine own self be true,
And it must follow
as the night the day
thou canst not then be false
to any man.
There's a small degree of dishonesty about you coming into a Buddhist forum, asking a cryptic and obscure question, and then whooshing back your cloak and announcing:
"Da-dah!! Well look-ee here folks! I have the answer!!"
André Gide, a French writer, Philosopher, and deeply religious man, once wrote:
"Believe those who are seeking Truth;
Doubt those who find it."
May your journey be as fulfiling, as satisfying and as joyous and serene for you, as mine is for me.
You said it but I wonder if you read your own words:
Paul says it, too: faith, hope and love are the keys but they do not contain certainty. Paul is clear: certainty is not a constant Now experience, it is a hope in a Then event when we shall "know as we are known".
The thread is called "What do you believe", not "what do you know". PoJ believes in a Christian paradise, Genryu does not. If we had believing Muslims, they might be telling us about their belief in Paradise, too. Pure Land Buddhists might tell us about their Pure Land...... and so on, to the far end, and back again.
Belief comes is a lot of flavours. I believe that my chair will support my weight. This is based on experience and is so deep in my 'belief structure' that I do not even think about it as I sit down. It should be noted that I am not necessarily going to be correct in my belief as other conditions may change. I believe that the square on the hypotenuse of a right-angle triangle is equal to the sum of the squares on the two adjacent sides but, in order to use this belief, I have to trawl through mathematical memory to prove it.
Belief in an afterlife falls into neither of these two categories of belief. It partakes more of the nature of a strongly-held opinion.
What I admire about some of the replies is that they are personal. PoJ's response is personal and owned as such. I do not read it as proselytising any more than Genryu's response which sems a little harsh. A question that had been asked was answered - where's the problem?
Personally, I have no certainty and few opinions about what happens to consciousness, mind, soul, or whatever, after the body dies. There are times when it appears supremely unimportant because there is today to deal with. At other times, it is supremely important because I ask myself Pascal's question: what if all or any of their explanations are true? Until there is some testable evidence then I, like my patron Twin, Thomas, will go on wondering.
No offense,but I had been reading your posts and I kind help giving my own two cents worth.I mean,you cannot just go around asking everyone what is the truth.To each his own,everyone have their own religion,their own opinions.
So,we have to respect that.Asking a direct question like "What hapens after death",at least people are giving their own opinions.As it is,none have come back to tell us what happen.Trust me,no one will have a direct or correct answer.
Thank you.
"Uphold your religion but try to respect others too"
-Ar.Aid
I can understand the desire to appear non judgemental, which in many cases is admirable, however there are Christians and there are fundamentalists and the two are not the same. Fundamentalism is a perversion of spirituality and should in my opinion never be humoured. In the UK we are fortunate to have a much more secular society, where fundamentalist Christian beliefs would be treated as the illness they are if picked up in the school system, whilst here they are increasingly held to be the norm - an alarming state of affairs to say the least.
The original question posed here was what do Buddhists believe, which, whilst it's kind of a contradiction in terms, was answered reasonably, but these answers were then used by the original poster to launch his own beliefs, which are not appropriate in a Buddhist forum. As to the question of nobody knowing, some do indeed know. The Buddha knew, and all those who have awakened since him know, so I would go along with Elohim who pointed out that not only is there truth (though not as an abstract concept), but as the Buddha made clear, it is possible to know directly for oneself. If the original questioner sees wanting to be awake to the reality of things as they are as 'pointless' as he himself put it, then he's most definitely in the wrong place.
Prisoner, I believe that all life is suffering. As your name beautifully encapsulates - We are all prisoners of joy. This joy is transient and always will be. Everything will end.
Gods and idols may fill this empty space for many, reality is too harsh to look in the face sometimes. However that is only my humble opinion.
the only truth i know is that of impermanence. It is that i cannot doubt.
all the best
well mayb not reincarnation but you might believe in trying to reach nirvana...
(fix my errors about your religion ) I am willing to be corrected...
In your opinion maybe, but try telling that to the Hindus.
You say you are willing to be corrected but I don't see much evidence of that.
What if I was to say that there is no God, would you be willing to be corrected regarding that?
I'll tell you what POJ123...
Let's engage in a bit of constructive dialogue.
I spent the best part of 40 years or more, actively and energetically involved in my Catholic Christian community.
So although I'd never put myself forward as an expert, I know a good deal about the Bible and the teachings of Christ...
A Buddhist monk, being read specific passages of the Bible, came to the conclusion that Christ was not only a Boddhisattva, but had definitely reached enlightenment.
The Dalai Lama and other prominent Buddhists are constantly engaged in constructive dialogue with the Christian faith...Books have been written on the subject.
So.....
Let's start from a specific point:
What do you know for sure, about Buddhism?
What are you willing to learn?
I can quite understand your discomfort and distrust of fundamentalism - I can share those feelings about all forms of fanaticism. I am of the opinion that fundamentalism arises, among other causes, from a literalist attitude to scriptural texts. When Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian, Hindu or, even, Buddhist scriptures are taken as literal, "inerrant" words of absolute and uncontrovertible truth, trouble ensues.
It is one of the great strengths of Zen that its legend of origin is wordless!
Nevertheless, I have had to come to the view that fundamentalism has got to be understood. For the time being, it is a growing phenomenon and, I believe, a symptom of a deeper credulousness in large swathes of the population. HHDL said, "In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher." And we are taught to give our teachers great reverence and respect.
It is also a sad and dangerous truth that fundamentalists and non-literalists use the same language. I have yet to be convinced that PoJ is speaking as a fundamentalist or is using the language of a less extreme faith.
PrisonerofJoy,
I know you have a hope of "someone" that supposedly did "something. But why are you questioning (in an unfavorable light) those who believe something just as outlandish as you do? How can you say there is no guessing what happens beyond the grave because of something some guys wrote down in a book?
Do you have proof that you will rise from the grave? Do you have proof that someone called Jesus died and then rose again? Do you have any evidence that this character from a story conquered anything? Or is this just something you've read in a book somewhere?
I do find it a little odd that you're holding people's beliefs to a certain criteria that you yourself can't follow, answer, support or prove either.
You may be a prisoner of joy - but doesn't that mean you're still a prisoner?
Best wishes to you on your search.
-bf
Before Christ---My life was just not right. I felt like no one really understood me.
Meeting Christ---He told me He knew me.
After Christ---I got rid of an addiction I had for 3 years. it was really hard without Christ but once I had Christ it was very easy.
You can do all things through Christ!!! (Phil 4:15)
the existence of Jesus is recorded by the Jewish historian--Flavius Josephus who was born in A.D. 37."Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works."
Cornelius Tacitus ( A.D. 112 ) a roman historian writing about the reign of Nero, refers to Jesus Christ and the existence of Christians in Rome. later on Tacitus refers to Christianity when alluding to the burning of the temple of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
other references of Jesus and His followers, such as the Roman historian Seutonius ( A.D. 120 ) in life of Claudia.. both testimony of Christians and non-Christians, is more than enough to lay to rest any idea that Jesus, never existed.
The accounts of His appearances are recorded for us by eyewitnesses to who Jesus appeared to.
500 people witnessed the resurrected Christ at the time and a lot of them were living when wrote (1 corithians 15:6).
Frank Morrison, was a agnostic journalist, who attempted to write a book that would prove the resurrection of Christ to be false.. after much looking into, his opinions changed and he became a believer in Jesus Christ...
also if Christ did not rise from the dead, then someone took the body. there are some interest groups that could possibly have taken the body.. Romans or the Jews or the disciples.
the Romans had no reason, since they wanted to keep the peace in palestine. stealing the body of Christ would only make things worse.
The Jews wouldn't have tooken the body, because the least thing they wanted was a proclamation of the resurection.. then finally the disciples with no reason to take the body if they did, they later died for something they knew to be untrue.
has Peter states-- "For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we make known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty "( 2 peter 1:16 )
Prisoner of Joy means that no matter what I am stuck with JESUS CHRIST... so therefore I am a prisonerofjoy.. not prisonerofnotjoy... of course you don't have to be a believer to have this name. you can have joy through a big screen tv.. but my joy comes from JESUS CHRIST alone..
and another thing I wanted to say thanks for dealing with me for so long.. I understand I have much to learn about when I am willing to talk to another person about there faiths and stuff.. but then again I am a human being... who is learning while he goes by.. if you know what I mean..
BEST WISHES POJ
He told you that he knew you. And how did he tell you this? Was it in person? I was going to ask if by "cell phone" - but then that's not Right Speech is it? But I would like to know how this man or deity contacted you and told you this information.
Therefore, as we cannot prove that God exists or does not exist (or exists for only seconds at a time every couple hundred years or so --or any other such argument [yuk, it's all so unpleasant and pointless!]) --Let's focus on what we believe about ourselves.
So many have said, and I concur, that the purpose of human life is to bring joy to other people. Bring joy, that means do all you can not to bring misery. ANd more, it's a lifetime's work of trying to be kind and fun and insightful and staying strong so you can keep up the good work. Yes, good works. Show me faith without good works and you show me nothing.
KISS Keep It Simple, Stupid!
The difference is in your own sig. A believer who is not a fundamentalist knows that beliefs are beliefs, not necessarily what is real. Those who know what is real on the other hand, have no need to believe. And fundamentalists, who are in neither position, exist in a mentality of poverty that fosters hatred, ignorance and suffering. The truth - the can't handle the truth...
He speaks in different ways.. the HOLY SPIRIT which is inside of me once I was reborn (spiritually not physically). His words are soft spoken words and once He is speaking or near me I get the feeling of the consuming fire breaking into flames ( which is amazing ) I just can't wait till I get ot meet Him in person that feeling I have the pleasure of having will be there forever which will never get tiring..
of course then He also speaks through His words ( The Bible-- which was written by men through the Holy Spirit ).
He also speaks through songs which is amazing to and then another one is that He speaks through other people...
another tesimony---- once I had a arguement with my dad.. He wanting me to help him pick up a automobile which instead I wanted to go to Gap ( wednesday night church for the youth ).. so I leave to go to church and I am really upset since I have been going through so many trials.. well on the way over to church I get this thought.. ( the Holy Spirit reminds you of things you have learned ) He said that I should slow down and that I am moving to fast ( psalm 46:10--- be still and know that I am God..). then 1 min later He says I will never forsake you.. then once more He said the reason why I don't feel like He is near isn't because of Him its because of me...
how do you know the things written in a history book aren't hearsay?
well about the Jews some of the things that the Jews recently went through was talked about through the Bible?
of course I am not trying to force anyone.. that will be wrong for me to do so.. I would like to ask you what do you people do in buddhism? what are the laws and the traditions?
well lets see off of my booklet here... it says you believe that Jesus was a teacher who may possess budhhahood or enlightenment. one among many, ut not unique..
your goal of life is nirvana to elminate all desire of attachment, particularly by following the Eight-fold path.
I am willing to learn anything.. of course like some of the questions on the top of my head is what is the Eight-fold path?
That's correct, except that Jesus is seen as being only partially awakened by many Buddhist teachers, his teachings being too dualistic to be evidence of anything beyond a fairly shallow awakening. That being said, as most biblical scholars would agree, the Bible is not an entirely accurate record of his teachings, having been selectively put together, censored and altered over the centuries. If the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas, the Sermon on the Mount and other ancient texts is more accurately represented, then he would indeed have been a much more awakened being.
There have been many thousands who have awakened, including those from the time of the Buddha down to today. Enlightenment is not remote, nor is it something that you have to wait to discover until after you die. There are those who have awakened living today all over the world, real human beings that you can meet and talk to for yourself.
Not quite. The goal is to awaken to things as they really are and through that to understand that we don't have to be driven by attachments.
It is, as Rev. Fa Dao Shakya, of the Order of Hsu Yun (OHY), (whom some of you have had the pleasure of coming across in this forum) puts it:
• Right View (Right Understanding)
"To understand suffering; to understand the origin of suffering; to understand the extinction of suffering; and to understand the path that leads to the extinction of suffering. This is called Right Understanding."
• Right Thought
"Thought free from lust; thought free from ill-will and "thought free from cruelty. This is called Right Thought."
• Right Speech
"Abstaining from lying; abstaining from telling tales (slander); abstaining from "harsh language" (generally construed to deal with unpleasant presentation rather than "coarse" words); and abstaining from vain talk are the basics here.
• Right Conduct (Right Action)
Which is living in accord with the Precepts...
•Right Livelihood
“When the noble disciple, avoiding a wrong way of living, gets his livelihood by a right way of living, this is called Right Livelihood.” In the Majjhima-Nikaaya, No. 117, it is said: `To practise deceit, treachery, soothsaying, trickery, usury: this is wrong livelihood.' And in the Anguttara-Nikaaya, V. 1 77, it is said: `Five trades should be avoided by a disciple: trading in arms, in living beings, in flesh, in intoxicating drinks, and in poison'. Included are the professions of warrior, fisherman, hunter, etc.
• Right Effort
is avoiding evil or unwholesome things; vercoming evil or unwholesome things; developing positive or wholesome attitudes and actions, and maintaining positive or wholesome attitudes and actions
• Right Mindfullness
includes tending the proper needs of the Body; being thoughtful of the emotional needs of self and others; contemplation of the Mind (keeping a clean and fair mind); and Contemplation of the Mind-Objects (which can get complicated -- basically it means recognizing fantasy from reality and not constructing concepts and headgames to justify treating others badly) and
• Right Meditation (Right Concentration)
in essence, the kind of mental concentration which is present in every wholesome state of consciousness and is accompanied by at least Right Thought , Right Effort and Right Mindfulness. `Wrong Concentration' is present in unwholesome states of consciousness, and as such is only possible in the sensuous, not in a higher sphere of being.
The Buddhism of Zen, from the OHY Website
They are more a collection of recommendations and soild advice, given as a structured guideline on how best to lead a life free from attachment and suffering....These two terms are also discussed and debated by Buddhists and are a central part of practise...
However, there are precepts, the first five of which are:
" 1. I observe the precept of abstaining from the destruction of life.
2. I observe the precept of abstaining from taking that which is not given.
3. I observe the precept of abstaining from sexual misconduct.
4. I observe the precept of abstaining from falsehood.
5. I observe the precept of abstaining from intoxicants that cloud the mind and cause carelessness.
The refrain "I observe the precept of abstaining from ..." which begins every precept clearly shows that these are not commandments. They are, indeed, moral codes of conduct that lay Buddhists willingly undertake out of clear understanding and conviction that they are good for both themselves and for society. "
(Taken from here: http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/beg/013-five.htm)
So you see, POJ, Buddhism is about a person relying entirely on themselves to lead a life you might describe as 'Holy.' Whereas Christianity - and other religions - adhere to the premise that God is in charge, and in Control, and it is to God that one must answer, for forgiveness of sins, and atonement, Buddhism places the rsponsibility of Charge and Control directly on the person - inwardly - and not outwardly.
Does this help, in any way, to briefly clarify what Buddhism is about?
I hope you will agree that whilst there is this fundamental difference with regard to the existence of a Deity, Buddhism and Christianity have actually got a great deal in common, with regard to how one should conduct ones' self....
Ignore the next 7 words unless you are prepared to take me on. It is all purely and simply psychological. That is all I will say - lest I lose control.
Not sure quite what you mean here, ajani...
there is no censorship or limitation put upon anyone here, in that there are no rules and regulations over what may and may not be done. As Buddhists and members of the forum, we do not stipulate what people say or contribute.... everyone has a right to express their beliefs or opinions, just as everyone has a right to reply.
The only limitations I would suggest exist, is the unspoken right for everyone to be treated with dignity, politeness and respect.
And may I just add that I find it very sporting of prisonerof Joy123 to be continuing and engaging in this discussion, and being willing and open enough to stay and discuss....
You beat me to it, I was just about to say that my opinion of POJ has changed completely (for the better I should add!) and it's good to see such a lively discussion taking place. I apologise POJ if my earlier posts came across a bit snotty.
I hope that makes sense: in his Faust, Goethe makes the point more eloquently than I could, when Faust is asked “Do you believe in God?” and replies:
God; who dare name,
And who proclaim,
In him I believe?
Who that can feel,
His heart can steel,
To say: I believe him not?
The All-embracer,
All-sustainer,
Holds and sustains he not
Thee, me, himself?
Lifts not the Heaven its dome above?
Doth not the firm-set earth beneath us lie?
And beaming tenderly with looks of love,
Climb not the everlasting stars on high?
Do we not gaze into each other’s eyes?
Nature’s impenetrable agencies,
Are they not thronging on your heart and brain,
Viewless, or invisible to mortal ken,
Around you weaving their mysterious chain?
Fill thence your heart, how large soe’er it be;
And in the feeling when thou utterly art blest,
Then call it, what thou wilt,—
Call it Bliss! Heart! Love! God!
I have no name for it!
’Tis feeling all;
Names are but sound and smoke
Shrouding the glow of heaven.
I personally am finding Buddhism an invigorating “place” to be in part because it does not appear to require from me belief in, or adherence to, any particular linguistic formulation or “creed” which, like Faust, I tend to find simply “sound and smoke”. On the contrary, the Buddha’s gentle refusal to allow concepts like self / no self to be pinned down in the Discourses appears to me to be grounded in a recognition that any truth on these issues lies beyond our language or ability to conceptualise. He simply points the finger at the moon.
Which still leaves open the possibility that one can – at least in part – experience such truth / enlightenment even if one can’t intellectualise it or even pin it down in words. Prisoner of Joy says, I think, that he has had an experience of what he calls Jesus which is valid for him. Others on this site “know” their own truth to be true based on their own experience. But it’s difficult for those of us who don’t have such experience(s) to draw on to understand that certainty, or to distinguish between the experiences of other (and perhaps it’s not appropriate to try to distinguish?) whilst those who have that sense of certainty based on experience can’t readily communicate their certainty to others (even if they were minded to).
Hello federica. I am confused that you say truth does not exist. Are there no universal truths at all?
What about suffering & impermanence are these not truths? Do the teachings of the buddha not try to show us these?
Water 's wet, and mountains are high... these are 'indisputable' truths, and go unargued - though people try quite often to se whether they can beat the odds...!!
There are of course indisputable truths;.. but I was specifically referring to matters regarding truths that are questionable, and indistinct.... and very often, if there is more than one answer, one cannot call it a truth, until we've done a kalama sutra on it....!!
You see what I mean?
hey, I'm relatively new at this too.... still finding out the methodology....!!
im only here to learn from you.
well so your saying that we are blind folded but we all touched the same animal in a different spot? if you know what I mean:
different people from around the globe are gathered.. and then blind folded and they all are put into a room with a large beastly animal... a elephant I guess... now each person is touching this elephant in a different spot not knowing what the animal is but after they are taking out of the room they each talk and they are describing the same thing but differently?