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Oh yes, sorry Fede and all, I guess I lost my democractic values for a moment. Bad day in school. (That's a lame excuse, I'll try for a plausible lie next time)
Just to add on, the precepts can be broken at will - in cirumstances that might require such. And morals are nothing but rubber bands with different usages for life.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
so if I am getting you right, you believe that there are multiple truths?
There are Multiple Truths in the sense that I can no more prove You are wrong in your beliefs, any more than you can indisputably prove you are Right....
Your Beliefs require you to place your Faith in a God that is both unseen and unheard.... and while I would do nothing personally to see your Faith shaken, I would reserve my right to examine, test, and scrutinise your Truth, for myself, as far as I possibly could.
There is a teaching by the Buddha, called the 'Kalama Sutra' in which he exhorts everyone to never take anything at face value, or to accept things without question. Including his own teachings. He strongly advises all "seekers" to thoroughly and rigorously test everything to it's nth degree, before either accepting - or rejecting - the results....
So there are multiple truths in the sense that people have the freedom of choice and discernment.....
For example, you and I would agree that to stroll down the street in winter, in shirtsleeves would be folly, right? We'd catch our death of colds! yet for an Inuit, this is a mild spell, and quite a change from the constant sub-zero unimaginably cold temperatures he's more used to....!! So you and I would say it's cold - he would say - "Not so!" But we'd both be right - !! It's relative to experience, personal knowlege and perception....
Perception though, is often accompanied by DEception.....
So to conclude, I would say that the best thing anyone can do, is to seek their own Truth, and do so with attention, care and respect - but to keep an open mind.....
but heres a question... if you were to wake up one day and hear that thousands maybe millions of people... christians disapeared... would you believe?
since a event called the RAPTURE is suppose to do that.. where Jesus Christ is suppose to come back and take up the faithful followers of Him..
just a question that came on the top of my head.........
As Fede said, it's important to keep an open mind. If an event such as the Rapture should occur it would certainly challenge some of my assumptions. In the meantime though I'm happy going along as I am.
Keep posting your questions, it's good to have such a lively discussion on here !
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
As I have already said, a person's beliefs don't make them right....
But the thing about Buddhism is that it never demands of you that you place faith or belief in anything... it just instructs you on how to examine what you find, in depth and detail...
You're not going to tell me that simply because something is written, you intend to accept it as Gospel truth without question?
Your choice of the word 'supposed' is a pertinent one... you know that this event has been described, but you have no idea when, how or even whether in fact it will happen at all.... So you have exposed the room for doubt within yourself.....
In Buddhism, there are no such doubts, because the Truths it expounds can be discovered by judicious study and examination....
The two specific Truths touched upon by Darryl are the Truth of Impermanence, and the Truth of Suffering.*....
These two are self-evident, and much of what the Buddha taught is founded on the elimination of illusion.....
Some have referred to Buddhism as a depressing or negative religion, looking on the gloomy side, but nothing could be farther from the truth.... because when the veils of illusion are lifted from the eyes of the practitioner, and they see things as they really are, The 'Suffering' ceases to arise, and one rests in the deep Joy and serenity of the Present Moment. There is no other.
In fact, a world-wide study by sociologists from several countries concluded, after several years of research, that Buddhists are the happiest people on the planet - !!
(*The word 'suffering' is translated from the word 'Dukkha' which, in its original context, depending on use, can also mean 'unsatisfactory', 'difficult', 'hard to bear', 'off the mark', 'frustrating' and 'hollow'. )
(Everyone might like to just cast a rudimentary glance over this article, BTW....)
but heres a question... if you were to wake up one day and hear that thousands maybe millions of people... christians disapeared... would you believe?
since a event called the RAPTURE is suppose to do that.. where Jesus Christ is suppose to come back and take up the faithful followers of Him..
just a question that came on the top of my head.........
thousands maybe millions of people dissapear all the time, its called starvation, disease and old age - that is enough proof for me.
I think I can see where you're going with this POJ...
Yes, there are multiple truths. Anything that is true is a truth.
Just like Christians state multiple "truths" - as confusing as it can be. How some Christian faiths know that "I am the Lord thy God", "I am a jealous and thou shalt have no other gods before me" - Yet many Christians pray to mere mortals for help, to other mortals that a mortal has decreed a "saint". Christianity states many things about the acts of a Christian god - Jesus - miracles, etc.
So does Buddhism. Buddhism states that there are many truths. Buddhism also has the capacity to accept new truths as they are found. I also believe that Buddhism is capable of acknowledging the existance of a god - if it were proven - without people questioning the validity of Buddhism.
Its true, POJ, there is only one ultimate truth and no one can prove what it is. We are all seekers. All we can do is move forward on "faith", keep an open mind and chose the paths that make the most sense to us [after careful consideration, of course]. As long as the path one chooses doesn't result in killing, cutting heads off and other evil or mean acts, I say...
Each to his own way
I'll go mine
Best of luck with what you find
Ah, but what if you were to move forward with sampajañña (clear comprehension) instead of simply just "faith"? This is where Buddhism differs from other "religions". The teachings handed down to us from the Buddha guide us to be our own refuge in mindfulness, awareness, clear comprehension, and wisdom. We may start out with "faith" or "conviction", but that is quickly replaced with "knowing" once we begin to practice. All one needs to do to experience this "knowing" is to thoroughly examine and follow the Noble Eightfold Path.
Is it true that there is only one absolute truth and that no one can prove what it is?
Is it not a truth that there is suffering in life?
Is it not a truth that suffering is caused by our attachments?
Is it not a truth that there is a cessation from suffering?
Is it not a truth, for those who practice it, that the Eightfold Path can lead to this cessation of suffering?
Ah, but what if you were to move forward with sampajañña (clear comprehension) instead of simply just "faith"? This is where Buddhism differs from other "religions". The teachings handed down to us from the Buddha guide us to be our own refuge in mindfulness, awareness, clear comprehension, and wisdom. We may start out with "faith" or "conviction", but that is quickly replaced with "knowing" once we begin to practice. All one needs to do to experience this "knowing" is to thoroughly examine and follow the Noble Eightfold Path.
It is at least something for us to consider.
Jason
I agree. However my post was born from this:
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
My use of the word "faith" used as a common term understood as one relating to going ahead with a path you believe the best one, even though you have no tangible proof it will lead you to ultimate truth.
My understanding of Buddhism is that a Buddhist is not a Buddhist because of what he/she believes but because of what he/she practices. Such as meditation, mindfulness, the precepts, ect. As long as I have been into Buddhism I have not been compelled to believe anything, just to try and see reality as it is. And I've found that the teachings of Buddhism are useful along this path.
A totally different mindset than that of Christianity, which is defined by belief. Hence the practice of calling Christians (and followers of some other religions) believers.
EDIT: sorry for the perhaps excessive use of italics LOL Just trying to make a point
I think personally Buddhism and Christianity can only be defined by actions. It's one thing to talk about it ,you have to walk it as well.
So get off you computer and save the World.You could walk an old lady across the road. Help Aung San Suu Kyi. Join Green Peace............whatever, it's up to you.
well agian I say supposed to because this is another forum filled with another religion... of course I believe the rapture will happen... I heard that it is going to happen during our time.
thanks agian for your kindness..
you are in my thoughts and prayers.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
And you in ours, POJ123...
It's a pleasure discussing things with you....
Has anything we have tried to put across made any sense to you?
Is there anything further we can add, and are there more questions you would like to ask?:)
However, I would like to add that the Kalama Sutta implies much more than simply that.
People often only look at this aspect of what was said, and forget the rest. As Thanissaro Bhikkhu states in his translation:
"Although this discourse is often cited as the Buddha's carte blanche for following one's own sense of right and wrong, it actually says something much more rigorous than that. Traditions are not to be followed simply because they are traditions. Reports (such as historical accounts or news) are not to be followed simply because the source seems reliable. One's own preferences are not to be followed simply because they seem logical or resonate with one's feelings. Instead, any view or belief must be tested by the results it yields when put into practice; and — to guard against the possibility of any bias or limitations in one's understanding of those results — they must further be checked against the experience of people who are wise. The ability to question and test one's beliefs in an appropriate way is called appropriate attention. The ability to recognize and chose wise people as mentors is called having admirable friends. According to Iti 16-17, these are, respectively, the most important internal and external factors for attaining the goal of the practice. For further thoughts on how to test a belief in practice, see MN 61, MN 95, AN VII.80, and AN VIII.53. For thoughts on how to judge whether another person is wise, see MN 110, AN IV.192, and AN VIII.54."
Buddhism has become many things over its long 2,500 year history. It can be hard to sort out the real meat and potatos.
Often it seems too many people just intellectualize, while too many others only practice.
But, that's another thread.
Jason
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
I say.... go easy, chaps!!
Bear in mind this was a thread posted by a visiting Christian member, who has been gracious enough tp participate and to interact and exchange in a most genial and cordial way.... we don't want to go firing the heavy artillery just yet.... (Sorry for the metaphor HH... but you know what I mean!!)
However, I would like to add that the Kalama Sutta implies much more than simply that.
Absolutely
I like the oppertunities presented at this site to get a glimpse into the deeper meanings/implications. I've never been much of a study hound with this stuff, just a little interest that developed over a couple decades into a general knowlege and practice of certain things/concepts.
As I learn more and read more it is WAY easy to become overwhelmed with it. The terms, concepts and writings can be confusing when viewed in too great a pile :scratch:
I tend to try to simplify the concepts I am familiar with when talking to folks that ask me about them. Simple concepts that are understandable can give root to deeper understandings. I credit HH the DL with bringing me to a certain point... Your (and others) posts are taking me a little further. I hope I was able to help POJ with my simplified view.
Understanding is a great thing... I think if I visit this board from time to time my understanding will continie to grow.
PRISONERofJOY123 12/30/2005, 8:38 p.m. ORIGINAL ENTRY:
well the title of the thread speaks for itself what do you guys believe?
I believe, in my religion, myself my friends and the list goes on and on and on and on.. Why the question?
__________________
Argon.Aid
(Italics mine)
WHY THE QUESTION? Because you want to proselytize, I gather. Two Thousand years haven't made the world more Christian, if by Christian you mean the Religion Of Jesus, not the Religion About Jesus. So, don't think you can convert Buddhist-leaning folks to Christ. Funny Bumper Sticker: GAY NAZIS FOR CHRIST!
Didn't Woody Allen say once that It wasn't so much that he thought God was evil, just an underachiever? If your religion is so magic and lucky, why don't all those miracles recorded in ACTS still work in the local church, as was promised in scripture? If Jesus is the Son of David, and the Lineage given in the Bible is through Joseph, then why is there no record of Joseph ever adopting him?
What's wrong with proselytizing theists, be they Muslim or Christian, is that they are insulting. They seem to say, "I know you have your religion, your moral values, &c, but unfortunately they're not right, and you need to be re-schooled in the Truth." That is not helpful. Being helpful is a pre-requisite for the religion of the future, which will have to focus on things practical
How can a religion help anyone if it starts out on the wrong foot? Religion should be grounded in confidence, and affirmed with self-confidence. Swami Vivekananda often said that he considered only that man who did not believe in himself to be the real Atheist.
well the title of the thread speaks for itself what do you guys believe?
Buddhism is not a belief-based religion, at least in it's origins. It is different from Christianity, Islam, and other religions in the sense that Christianity and Islam say that I must believe, or have faith in something that I have never seen, such as God, heaven, afterlife, ressurection, etc. Buddhism asks me to believe nothing. Buddha said "come and see" not "come and believe." He wanted us to practice and experience the truth for ourselves. Belief is meaningless. It is like a math formula that I don't understand, but believe the answer. It might be true, but it might not. Why not find out for myself? Of course, God may exist, as may all of the things that I mentioned. And they might not. Personally, I do believe in the existence of gods, including the god of the Bible. But gods are subject to death just like us, and are impermanent like everything else in the universe. And I do believe in heavens, but they are not eternal. Buddha even talked about heavens, hells, ghosts, and other realms. However, they are much longer than our earthly lives. But it is only temporary, and even people in heavens die and are subject to rebirth. Actually, Christianity is a good religion, so are all religions, and I don't discourage anybody from practicing their own religion, they should try to be the best follower of their religion as possible. Prisoner will probably go to heaven with his god, if he is a good follower of his religion and a good person. I hope that he continues to be a good Christian, as I hope this for the followers of all religions. But the Christian god, like Brahma, believe that they are the creator god, so that is what their followers teach. But these are just MY BELIEFS, just like Prisoner has his beliefs. Beliefs are irrelevant in my search for truth. It is more important for me to practice Buddhism, without beliefs, than to speculate about a cosmology that I cannot prove in this Earthly life. In fact, a Christian who practices meditation is more likely to come to the truth than a Buddhist with a bunch of beliefs with no practice. Because practice just works, no matter what you call it or yourself. And absolute truth is what it is no matter what we call it. I hope that this makes some sense.
a Christian who practices meditation is more likely to come to the truth than a Buddhist with a bunch of beliefs with no practice. Because practice just works, no matter what you call it or yourself. And absolute truth is what it is no matter what we call it. I hope that this makes some sense.
Well said. :smilec:
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
WHY THE QUESTION? Because you want to proselytize, I gather. Two Thousand years haven't made the world more Christian, if by Christian you mean the Religion Of Jesus, not the Religion About Jesus. So, don't think you can convert Buddhist-leaning folks to Christ. Funny Bumper Sticker: GAY NAZIS FOR CHRIST!
Didn't Woody Allen say once that It wasn't so much that he thought God was evil, just an underachiever? If your religion is so magic and lucky, why don't all those miracles recorded in ACTS still work in the local church, as was promised in scripture? If Jesus is the Son of David, and the Lineage given in the Bible is through Joseph, then why is there no record of Joseph ever adopting him?
*MODERATOR'S OPINION:*
Actually, Nirvana, POJ123 hasn't made any attempt to preach, convert, insult, ridicule or proselytise in any way shape or form... hes' been extremely polite, and given that he's severely outnumbered here, I find his exchanges with all of us to be very engaging and stimulating....
The impression and opinion you demonstrate, of Christians, may be one point of view - YOUR point of view - but I think on this occasion, it is misplaced and inappropriate....
Funny, I enjoy talking with Christians about their faith and Buddhist ways. While they sometimes feel threatened, I never feel threatened by them.
I may not not know all the teachings, terms and structure of Buddhism but the practice has given me a calm that is not easily shaken by the average fly; only particularly pesky ones or swarms test me now
Hey, I just came to understand something... back to the "I dont get alone with Buddist" thread!!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited January 2006
Where are the 'so many angry Buddhists' in this thread.....? :scratch:
By the way for evangelists who'd like to use Buddhist teachings - I heard this somewhere, preach with not the intention of converting the fellow for Christ, seek to convert that fellow to save him from the pain he will suffer if he does not.
Actually, Nirvana, POJ123 hasn't made any attempt to preach, convert, insult, ridicule or proselytise in any way shape or form... hes' been extremely polite, and given that he's severely outnumbered here, I find his exchanges with all of us to be very engaging and stimulating....
The impression and opinion you demonstrate, of Christians, may be one point of view - YOUR point of view - but I think on this occasion, it is misplaced and inappropriate....
I GUESS I DIDN'T READ HER OR HIM CLOSELY ENOUGH. After reading the whole thread through again, I see that either the content has chaged, or I read too much into what POJ was trying to say.
I must say, though, that culturally I am still a Christian, an Anglo-Catholic Vedantist very interested in Buddhism. I just am SO TIRED of LORD, LORDY.
That sounds stupid, and it is, but I just ran out of time this morning and wanted to post to keep “current.” I had to be to work in a few minutes. I am never late.
I repeat, that culturally I myself am still a Christian, an Anglo-Catholic Vedantist very interested in Buddhism. My main objection to this Christian Christ-fixation-thing is that it misses the point that the source of at-one-ment with the universe, or its source, is ultimately Impersonal. The Godhead is impersonal, and Christ is just the Christian Icon of God. Christianity is heterodox to the Orthodox Jew, in that it sets up AN IMAGE of God, thereby breaking the Ten Commandments (First or Second, depending on whether you’re Catholic or Protestant, I believe.)
To the degree that Redaction criticism proves that the gospel writers had certain ends in mind while writing, which taints the purity of intent notion of the gospels, I believe the enlightened Christian of the future will follow the “Religion Of Jesus,” rather than the historical “Religion About Jesus.” True, the latter has kept the texts and buildings, vestments, and furniture intact, but the church of the future will not be able to insist on its own way in the pluralistic world. Indeed, it was the Religion ABOUT Jesus that built up the church. But enough is enough. What other religion spends as much time and resources simply to “build up the body” of its “church?”
POJ Posted 04Jan2006, 7:09 a.m.
sounds good.. but surely we all can't be right.
but heres a question... if you were to wake up one day and hear that thousands maybe millions of people... christians disapeared... would you believe?
since a event called the RAPTURE is suppose to do that.. where Jesus Christ is suppose to come back and take up the faithful followers of Him..
just a question that came on the top of my head.........
__________________ Accepted and Forgiven Est. 33A.D.
Last edited by PRISONERofJOY123 : Yesterday at 07:16 AM.
POJ Posted 04Jan2006, 5:22 p.m.
well agian I say supposed to because this is another forum filled with another religion... of course I believe the rapture will happen... I heard that it is going to happen during our time.
thanks agian for your kindness..
you are in my thoughts and prayers.
__________________
Accepted and Forgiven Est. 33A.D.
And note the caption under the UserName in Sidebar:
Hedied4us2liv
I think that's preaching. "just a question that came on the top of my head........." Disingenuous, I think. "of course I believe the rapture will happen" (BUT ONLY FOR CHRISTIANS. HINT! HINT!)
And, federica, I'm sorry I may be reading more into this than is objectively valid, but I don't understand where I was inappropriate. As a Christian, I HAVE ALWAYS thought it a scandal that NEW TESTAMENT miracles are no longer common. A tread entitled, "WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE" might not really be an appropriate place to post something that has always puzzled you about a belief system, but I don't think it's a major crime, either!
THERE IS ONLY ONE PATH TO WALK,
THAT THEY CALL BLISSFUL.
(And how can you blissful be, if you think that the world is bliss-free
without your particular faith or philosophee?)
WHY THE QUESTION? Because you want to proselytize, I gather. Two Thousand years haven't made the world more Christian, if by Christian you mean the Religion Of Jesus, not the Religion About Jesus. So, don't think you can convert Buddhist-leaning folks to Christ. Funny Bumper Sticker: GAY NAZIS FOR CHRIST!
being a Christian means you followe Christ... its not about being religous or anything it is about a relationship with Him.
Didn't Woody Allen say once that It wasn't so much that he thought God was evil, just an underachiever? If your religion is so magic and lucky, why don't all those miracles recorded in ACTS still work in the local church, as was promised in scripture? If Jesus is the Son of David, and the Lineage given in the Bible is through Joseph, then why is there no record of Joseph ever adopting him?
of course they do... just that mose don't believe... I know a friends dad who actually drives demons out of people. demons have names on what they do.
I think its more of the fact that people now days they hear of the miricals that happen and they think oh.. I will never be able to do that... so its not that the miricals are false its because people don't believe...
How can a religion help anyone if it starts out on the wrong foot? Religion should be grounded in confidence, and affirmed with self-confidence. Swami Vivekananda often said that he considered only that man who did not believe in himself to be the real Atheist.
I am a firm believer in Christ... I am so confident in Christ that I want to go out and do missions...
heres another point:
when I go to school I get so nervous people are talking about me that I then start thinking about my walking.... which then brings more problems.... my way.. but when the school day is over and I go to my church... as soon as I enter the church building I feel the whieght lifted off of me...
I think its more of the fact that people now days they hear of the miricals that happen and they think oh.. I will never be able to do that... so its not that the miricals are false its because people don't believe...
Interestingly, this is one reason why Buddhists view Christ's level of awakening as being somewhat shallow. Performing such 'miracles' for a Buddhist is evidence of being attached to the unimportant. It's a sign or spiritual immaturity. The Buddhist attitude towards miracles can perhaps be exemplified by this story:
In Japan some centuries ago, two monks from different traditions were talking. The one, a disciple of a famous and revered teacher, went on at length about the miracles his teacher could do. "For instance," He said, "My master can stand on the opposite side of this river and cause writing to appear on a piece of paper on this side of the river."
"My teacher too is a great master capable of peforming miracles." Said the other monk. "For example, when he eats, he just eats, and when he sleeps, he just sleeps."
Another teacher, centuries later in our own time, Thich Nhat Hanh, a friend of Martin Luther King and a nominee for the Nobel Prize, gave his own opinion of such shallow miracles:
"The Zen master Ling Chi said that the miracle is not to walk on burning charcoal or in the thin air or on the water; the miracle is just to walk on earth. You breathe in. You become aware of the fact that you are alive. You are still alive and you are walking on this beautiful planet. That is already performing a miracle. The greatest of all miracles is to be alive. We have to awaken ourselves to the truth that we are here, alive. We are here making steps on this beautiful planet. This is already performing a miracle.
But we have to be here in order for the miracle to be possible. We have to bring ourselves back to the here and the now. Therefore each step we take becomes a miracle. If you are able to walk like that, each step will be very nourishing and healing. You walk as if you kiss the earth with your feet, as if you massage the earth with your feet. There is a lot of love in that practice..."
- Thich Nhat Hanh - Today We're Performing a Miracle
As an aside, deliberately performing such tricks in public, for a Buddhist monk or nun, is one of the offenses for which they can be disrobed. It's not that these things are unknown, indeed at some point in practice, such abilities can and do arise, abilities that often don't seem to fit into normal, rational explanations. To be attached to them though is to mistake fools gold for the real thing. They are curiousities at best and ultimately of no real significance.
I am a firm believer in Christ... I am so confident in Christ that I want to go out and do missions...
heres another point:
when I go to school I get so nervous people are talking about me that I then start thinking about my walking.... which then brings more problems.... my way.. but when the school day is over and I go to my church... as soon as I enter the church building I feel the whieght lifted off of me...
That is self consciousness, the delusion of separation between ourselves and others and it's a killer. One reason why belief is so seductive is because it does allay temporarily the awkwardness of self cosciousness. Ultimately though it makes it worse. It is not a solution unless you can be without such self consciousness in all circumstances at all times. And that is what practice brings about.
In answer to the original thread, "What do you believe?":
When I ponder spiritual questions which I haven't the knowledge to answer sometimes my brain gets ahead of me and fills with ideas. And "what ifs". And I used to make myself panic with these foolish thoughts. When I lost control in this way it was excruciatingly painful. Far worse than any other kind of pain I have ever suffered.
It became necessary to pull myself out. But it was very difficult. Nothing I told myself calmed my panic. I doubted everything and everyone. I was desperate for relief. It was a catastrophic crisis of faith.
How could I have faith in anything that I could not prove for myself? How could I trust the "truth" from other human beings? What if everything I had been told was all a lie? What if the "truth" was something horrible? What if this life was just practice for something even worse?
So I brought it all back down to the very basics.
I asked myself "What can I really trust and have real faith in?" And the answer was me.
And I asked myself "Why do you have faith in yourself?" And the answer was "because I love. I have the capacity to love unconditionally and with impartiality."
If I couldn't trust anyone or anything else, I could trust that.
So, in answer to the original thread, I believe in love.
Ok, now go deeper, who is it that trusts if 'me' is the object of trust? Is there really a self that believes in Love? Is that the same self that gets annoyed and irritated at the stupidity of others, or even it's own mistakes sometimes? What happens when that self is asleep, does it still believe in love then?
But you're also right in a fundamental way. We cannot get the answer/s from someone else, whether it's the Buddha, Jesus Christ, Lao Tsu or Yogi Berra (well Yogi Berra may well be the one exception here). Whatever answer we get from someone else is just that - someone else's answer. What Practice can do though is encourage us to cut the crap and find our own answers, answers that aren't second hand, answers that don't always wrap up neatly in a softly spoken platitude, but do come out of the furnace of transformation. That answer, strangely enough, is always, and it really is always, in accord with the answer that every person who's ever awakened has found. It doesn't differ by so much as a hair's breadth, but it is also completely unique and completely first hand.
Even more unnerving for many of us, it comes through attention, through doubt, and then through refusing to be fobbed off with anything short of knowing in the bones, through taking the questioning so deep that we become one whole mass of crap cutting, doubt. Do you doubt Buddhism? Great. Doubt your teacher - even better, doubt yourself - best of all. And that hurts like hell at times.
"Morpheus: I imagine that right now, you're feeling a bit like Alice. Hmm? Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
Neo: You could say that.
Morpheus: I see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that's not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why not?
Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
Morpheus: I know *exactly* what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Neo: The Matrix.
Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
Neo: Yes.
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind."
In many Zendos, the figure on the altar is the Bodhisattva Manjushri, the embodiment of awakened wisdom or Prajna. He holds a sword in one hand. The sword of Prajna which kills and gives life freely and without hesitation. Doubt, when plumbed to the very very bottom is no different from Manjushri's sword. It cuts through all the bull, all the stories that we tell ourselves, all our beliefs and all our notions of who and what we are, and that is supremely dangerous to 'me', to the me that believes in anything most of all.
"There is I think a pervasive tendency to think of Zen or Buddhism as a polite answer to all our woes, a civilized and benign path toward a comfortable happiness. There is a good deal of truth to this I think. Buddhism is a rational and a reasonable way to live with clarity and kindness. But at its bottom, at the level of questioning, which, it seems to me, one inevitably encounters if one's study goes deep enough, there are problems in relation to the ordinary world. These problems however are seen as such only from the outside. Because the person who is willing to question all the way up to the end of questioning and beyond can live or die, win or lose, come or go freely.
All of this is expressed in the traditional Zen formulation of the two styles of teaching, the teaching that gives life, and the teaching takes life. Both are necessary. There's a story quoted in the Blue Cliff Record of the pilgrim Sudhana who goes to the bodhisattva Manjushri to study herbology. Manjushri asks him to begin his study by finding an herb that is not medicinal. Sudhana looks everywhere but cannot find a single herb that isn't medicinal. He comes back and shares this uncanny fact with Manjushri. Everything is medicinal. Everything, whether we like it or not, whether it fits in with our plans or not, is medicinal. Manjushri says, then find me an herb that is medicinal and Sudhana picks up a blade of grass at his feet and hands it to Manjushri. Manjushri says, "This blade of grass is a sword that gives life and that takes life."
We all understand and approve of giving life: nurturing ourselves and others, forgiving ourselves and others, taking care of ourselves and others. But taking life is more difficult. It involves renunciation, letting go and giving up. Not only of things in our lives but of our life itself, of our very identity. Only in this way can we be truly free and at ease and only in this way can we really be kind. Questioning takes us this far."
That's why I'm only semi-awake. I'm afraid of the second half. I'm afraid of the abyss. I'm afraid to jump. I'm blindfolded in a swaying helicopter being told to jump, bit I'm unaware that we're only six feet up.
Which is a sensible reaction and that fear is there for a reason. One thing though that you may have already discovered, is that you can trust the process. The jumping into the abyss isn't really a conscious decision. At some point, there is a letting go, almost like when a muscle has become overtight and then simply relaxes because it just can't keep tensing any longer. The body does the letting go and you will find yourself just jumping.
"...when a muscle has become overtight and then simply relaxes because it just can't keep tensing any longer. The body does the letting go and you will find yourself just jumping."
Wow! That's perfect. I actually understand. I can use that. I hadn't actually thought that way about it before. I just got chills. I get it! That's the most comforting thing I've ever heard. And here I was thinking there would be no quick comfort in Buddhism, just a lot of sharp edges etc. Thank you so much, Genryu.
thanks for commenting... I don't have time to read them all but I will when I get back...
I’m expecting POJ to rejoin us shortly, but before POJ does, I want to state, emphatically, that THERE IS NO ONE TRUE RELIGION, but if there were, it would be the Religion of the HEART. That said, there would be, roughly speaking, as many different "religious systems" as there are people.
IT would follow, then, that DOCTRINE would have to play second-fiddle to intuition and experience, and that belief would not be as important as putting that "belief" into practice. Now, if that's true, how can you "put into practice" belief in a person (such as a member of the Christian Trinity), and call that the culmination of your religion (Somebody please, help me here!)? I guess what I mean is that, would a Buddhist ever say, "Buddha is the Answer?"
I really liked Brigid's initial post on this thread:
I asked myself "What can I really trust and have real faith in?" And the answer was me.
And I asked myself "Why do you have faith in yourself?" And the answer was "because I love. I have the capacity to love unconditionally and with impartiality."
If I couldn't trust anyone or anything else, I could trust that.
So, in answer to the original thread, I believe in love.
After all, the question was what she believed, not what practices she engaged in. However, I really enjoyed the interchange between her and our Friend, ZenMonk Genryu. A lot of good things to ponder. THANKS TO ALL!
Comments
:thumbsup: Sounds terrific Prisoner!
Wishing you all the best. May you follow the yellow-brick-road safely and meet the Wizard.
Just to add on, the precepts can be broken at will - in cirumstances that might require such. And morals are nothing but rubber bands with different usages for life.
There are Multiple Truths in the sense that I can no more prove You are wrong in your beliefs, any more than you can indisputably prove you are Right....
Your Beliefs require you to place your Faith in a God that is both unseen and unheard.... and while I would do nothing personally to see your Faith shaken, I would reserve my right to examine, test, and scrutinise your Truth, for myself, as far as I possibly could.
There is a teaching by the Buddha, called the 'Kalama Sutra' in which he exhorts everyone to never take anything at face value, or to accept things without question. Including his own teachings. He strongly advises all "seekers" to thoroughly and rigorously test everything to it's nth degree, before either accepting - or rejecting - the results....
So there are multiple truths in the sense that people have the freedom of choice and discernment.....
For example, you and I would agree that to stroll down the street in winter, in shirtsleeves would be folly, right? We'd catch our death of colds! yet for an Inuit, this is a mild spell, and quite a change from the constant sub-zero unimaginably cold temperatures he's more used to....!! So you and I would say it's cold - he would say - "Not so!" But we'd both be right - !! It's relative to experience, personal knowlege and perception....
Perception though, is often accompanied by DEception.....
So to conclude, I would say that the best thing anyone can do, is to seek their own Truth, and do so with attention, care and respect - but to keep an open mind.....
but heres a question... if you were to wake up one day and hear that thousands maybe millions of people... christians disapeared... would you believe?
since a event called the RAPTURE is suppose to do that.. where Jesus Christ is suppose to come back and take up the faithful followers of Him..
just a question that came on the top of my head.........
Keep posting your questions, it's good to have such a lively discussion on here !
But the thing about Buddhism is that it never demands of you that you place faith or belief in anything... it just instructs you on how to examine what you find, in depth and detail...
You're not going to tell me that simply because something is written, you intend to accept it as Gospel truth without question?
Your choice of the word 'supposed' is a pertinent one... you know that this event has been described, but you have no idea when, how or even whether in fact it will happen at all.... So you have exposed the room for doubt within yourself.....
In Buddhism, there are no such doubts, because the Truths it expounds can be discovered by judicious study and examination....
The two specific Truths touched upon by Darryl are the Truth of Impermanence, and the Truth of Suffering.*....
These two are self-evident, and much of what the Buddha taught is founded on the elimination of illusion.....
Some have referred to Buddhism as a depressing or negative religion, looking on the gloomy side, but nothing could be farther from the truth.... because when the veils of illusion are lifted from the eyes of the practitioner, and they see things as they really are, The 'Suffering' ceases to arise, and one rests in the deep Joy and serenity of the Present Moment. There is no other.
In fact, a world-wide study by sociologists from several countries concluded, after several years of research, that Buddhists are the happiest people on the planet - !!
(*The word 'suffering' is translated from the word 'Dukkha' which, in its original context, depending on use, can also mean 'unsatisfactory', 'difficult', 'hard to bear', 'off the mark', 'frustrating' and 'hollow'. )
(Everyone might like to just cast a rudimentary glance over this article, BTW....)
http://www.dwbuk.org/buddhism_teachings_rock_n_roll_buddha.html
At least you're honest Ajani !
i need to show my wife that article as i want a new bike.
thousands maybe millions of people dissapear all the time, its called starvation, disease and old age - that is enough proof for me.
Yes, there are multiple truths. Anything that is true is a truth.
Just like Christians state multiple "truths" - as confusing as it can be. How some Christian faiths know that "I am the Lord thy God", "I am a jealous and thou shalt have no other gods before me" - Yet many Christians pray to mere mortals for help, to other mortals that a mortal has decreed a "saint". Christianity states many things about the acts of a Christian god - Jesus - miracles, etc.
So does Buddhism. Buddhism states that there are many truths. Buddhism also has the capacity to accept new truths as they are found. I also believe that Buddhism is capable of acknowledging the existance of a god - if it were proven - without people questioning the validity of Buddhism.
-bf
Each to his own way
I'll go mine
Best of luck with what you find
Peace, my brother Seeker.
"All we can do is move forward on "faith".
Ah, but what if you were to move forward with sampajañña (clear comprehension) instead of simply just "faith"? This is where Buddhism differs from other "religions". The teachings handed down to us from the Buddha guide us to be our own refuge in mindfulness, awareness, clear comprehension, and wisdom. We may start out with "faith" or "conviction", but that is quickly replaced with "knowing" once we begin to practice. All one needs to do to experience this "knowing" is to thoroughly examine and follow the Noble Eightfold Path.
It is at least something for us to consider.
Jason
Is it not a truth that there is suffering in life?
Is it not a truth that suffering is caused by our attachments?
Is it not a truth that there is a cessation from suffering?
Is it not a truth, for those who practice it, that the Eightfold Path can lead to this cessation of suffering?
I thought these were "truths".
-bf
Please feel free to KMA is a most compassionate way.
I agree. However my post was born from this:
My use of the word "faith" used as a common term understood as one relating to going ahead with a path you believe the best one, even though you have no tangible proof it will lead you to ultimate truth.
A totally different mindset than that of Christianity, which is defined by belief. Hence the practice of calling Christians (and followers of some other religions) believers.
EDIT: sorry for the perhaps excessive use of italics LOL Just trying to make a point
So get off you computer and save the World.You could walk an old lady across the road. Help Aung San Suu Kyi. Join Green Peace............whatever, it's up to you.
Your time starts now.
thanks agian for your kindness..
you are in my thoughts and prayers.
It's a pleasure discussing things with you....
Has anything we have tried to put across made any sense to you?
Is there anything further we can add, and are there more questions you would like to ask?:)
Yes, I certainly do agree.
However, I would like to add that the Kalama Sutta implies much more than simply that.
People often only look at this aspect of what was said, and forget the rest. As Thanissaro Bhikkhu states in his translation:
"Although this discourse is often cited as the Buddha's carte blanche for following one's own sense of right and wrong, it actually says something much more rigorous than that. Traditions are not to be followed simply because they are traditions. Reports (such as historical accounts or news) are not to be followed simply because the source seems reliable. One's own preferences are not to be followed simply because they seem logical or resonate with one's feelings. Instead, any view or belief must be tested by the results it yields when put into practice; and — to guard against the possibility of any bias or limitations in one's understanding of those results — they must further be checked against the experience of people who are wise. The ability to question and test one's beliefs in an appropriate way is called appropriate attention. The ability to recognize and chose wise people as mentors is called having admirable friends. According to Iti 16-17, these are, respectively, the most important internal and external factors for attaining the goal of the practice. For further thoughts on how to test a belief in practice, see MN 61, MN 95, AN VII.80, and AN VIII.53. For thoughts on how to judge whether another person is wise, see MN 110, AN IV.192, and AN VIII.54."
Buddhism has become many things over its long 2,500 year history. It can be hard to sort out the real meat and potatos.
Often it seems too many people just intellectualize, while too many others only practice.
But, that's another thread.
Jason
Bear in mind this was a thread posted by a visiting Christian member, who has been gracious enough tp participate and to interact and exchange in a most genial and cordial way.... we don't want to go firing the heavy artillery just yet.... (Sorry for the metaphor HH... but you know what I mean!!)
Let's "break him in" gently!!
(Just kidding POJ!)
But, I was going easy!
Jason
Absolutely
I like the oppertunities presented at this site to get a glimpse into the deeper meanings/implications. I've never been much of a study hound with this stuff, just a little interest that developed over a couple decades into a general knowlege and practice of certain things/concepts.
As I learn more and read more it is WAY easy to become overwhelmed with it. The terms, concepts and writings can be confusing when viewed in too great a pile :scratch:
I tend to try to simplify the concepts I am familiar with when talking to folks that ask me about them. Simple concepts that are understandable can give root to deeper understandings. I credit HH the DL with bringing me to a certain point... Your (and others) posts are taking me a little further. I hope I was able to help POJ with my simplified view.
Understanding is a great thing... I think if I visit this board from time to time my understanding will continie to grow.
WHY THE QUESTION? Because you want to proselytize, I gather. Two Thousand years haven't made the world more Christian, if by Christian you mean the Religion Of Jesus, not the Religion About Jesus. So, don't think you can convert Buddhist-leaning folks to Christ. Funny Bumper Sticker: GAY NAZIS FOR CHRIST!
Didn't Woody Allen say once that It wasn't so much that he thought God was evil, just an underachiever? If your religion is so magic and lucky, why don't all those miracles recorded in ACTS still work in the local church, as was promised in scripture? If Jesus is the Son of David, and the Lineage given in the Bible is through Joseph, then why is there no record of Joseph ever adopting him?
What's wrong with proselytizing theists, be they Muslim or Christian, is that they are insulting. They seem to say, "I know you have your religion, your moral values, &c, but unfortunately they're not right, and you need to be re-schooled in the Truth." That is not helpful. Being helpful is a pre-requisite for the religion of the future, which will have to focus on things practical
How can a religion help anyone if it starts out on the wrong foot? Religion should be grounded in confidence, and affirmed with self-confidence. Swami Vivekananda often said that he considered only that man who did not believe in himself to be the real Atheist.
pob:tongue2:
Well said. :smilec:
*MODERATOR'S OPINION:*
Actually, Nirvana, POJ123 hasn't made any attempt to preach, convert, insult, ridicule or proselytise in any way shape or form... hes' been extremely polite, and given that he's severely outnumbered here, I find his exchanges with all of us to be very engaging and stimulating....
The impression and opinion you demonstrate, of Christians, may be one point of view - YOUR point of view - but I think on this occasion, it is misplaced and inappropriate....
Funny, I enjoy talking with Christians about their faith and Buddhist ways. While they sometimes feel threatened, I never feel threatened by them.
I may not not know all the teachings, terms and structure of Buddhism but the practice has given me a calm that is not easily shaken by the average fly; only particularly pesky ones or swarms test me now
Hey, I just came to understand something... back to the "I dont get alone with Buddist" thread!!
Maybe that word is 'silence'.....
I GUESS I DIDN'T READ HER OR HIM CLOSELY ENOUGH. After reading the whole thread through again, I see that either the content has chaged, or I read too much into what POJ was trying to say.
I must say, though, that culturally I am still a Christian, an Anglo-Catholic Vedantist very interested in Buddhism. I just am SO TIRED of LORD, LORDY.
That sounds stupid, and it is, but I just ran out of time this morning and wanted to post to keep “current.” I had to be to work in a few minutes. I am never late.
I repeat, that culturally I myself am still a Christian, an Anglo-Catholic Vedantist very interested in Buddhism. My main objection to this Christian Christ-fixation-thing is that it misses the point that the source of at-one-ment with the universe, or its source, is ultimately Impersonal. The Godhead is impersonal, and Christ is just the Christian Icon of God. Christianity is heterodox to the Orthodox Jew, in that it sets up AN IMAGE of God, thereby breaking the Ten Commandments (First or Second, depending on whether you’re Catholic or Protestant, I believe.)
To the degree that Redaction criticism proves that the gospel writers had certain ends in mind while writing, which taints the purity of intent notion of the gospels, I believe the enlightened Christian of the future will follow the “Religion Of Jesus,” rather than the historical “Religion About Jesus.” True, the latter has kept the texts and buildings, vestments, and furniture intact, but the church of the future will not be able to insist on its own way in the pluralistic world. Indeed, it was the Religion ABOUT Jesus that built up the church. But enough is enough. What other religion spends as much time and resources simply to “build up the body” of its “church?”
POJ Posted 04Jan2006, 7:09 a.m.
POJ Posted 04Jan2006, 5:22 p.m.
And note the caption under the UserName in Sidebar:
I think that's preaching. "just a question that came on the top of my head........." Disingenuous, I think. "of course I believe the rapture will happen" (BUT ONLY FOR CHRISTIANS. HINT! HINT!)
And, federica, I'm sorry I may be reading more into this than is objectively valid, but I don't understand where I was inappropriate. As a Christian, I HAVE ALWAYS thought it a scandal that NEW TESTAMENT miracles are no longer common. A tread entitled, "WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE" might not really be an appropriate place to post something that has always puzzled you about a belief system, but I don't think it's a major crime, either!
THERE IS ONLY ONE PATH TO WALK,
THAT THEY CALL BLISSFUL.
(And how can you blissful be, if you think that the world is bliss-free
without your particular faith or philosophee?)
being a Christian means you followe Christ... its not about being religous or anything it is about a relationship with Him.
of course they do... just that mose don't believe... I know a friends dad who actually drives demons out of people. demons have names on what they do.
I think its more of the fact that people now days they hear of the miricals that happen and they think oh.. I will never be able to do that... so its not that the miricals are false its because people don't believe...
I am a firm believer in Christ... I am so confident in Christ that I want to go out and do missions...
heres another point:
when I go to school I get so nervous people are talking about me that I then start thinking about my walking.... which then brings more problems.... my way.. but when the school day is over and I go to my church... as soon as I enter the church building I feel the whieght lifted off of me...
Interestingly, this is one reason why Buddhists view Christ's level of awakening as being somewhat shallow. Performing such 'miracles' for a Buddhist is evidence of being attached to the unimportant. It's a sign or spiritual immaturity. The Buddhist attitude towards miracles can perhaps be exemplified by this story:
In Japan some centuries ago, two monks from different traditions were talking. The one, a disciple of a famous and revered teacher, went on at length about the miracles his teacher could do. "For instance," He said, "My master can stand on the opposite side of this river and cause writing to appear on a piece of paper on this side of the river."
"My teacher too is a great master capable of peforming miracles." Said the other monk. "For example, when he eats, he just eats, and when he sleeps, he just sleeps."
Another teacher, centuries later in our own time, Thich Nhat Hanh, a friend of Martin Luther King and a nominee for the Nobel Prize, gave his own opinion of such shallow miracles:
"The Zen master Ling Chi said that the miracle is not to walk on burning charcoal or in the thin air or on the water; the miracle is just to walk on earth. You breathe in. You become aware of the fact that you are alive. You are still alive and you are walking on this beautiful planet. That is already performing a miracle. The greatest of all miracles is to be alive. We have to awaken ourselves to the truth that we are here, alive. We are here making steps on this beautiful planet. This is already performing a miracle.
But we have to be here in order for the miracle to be possible. We have to bring ourselves back to the here and the now. Therefore each step we take becomes a miracle. If you are able to walk like that, each step will be very nourishing and healing. You walk as if you kiss the earth with your feet, as if you massage the earth with your feet. There is a lot of love in that practice..."
- Thich Nhat Hanh - Today We're Performing a Miracle
As an aside, deliberately performing such tricks in public, for a Buddhist monk or nun, is one of the offenses for which they can be disrobed. It's not that these things are unknown, indeed at some point in practice, such abilities can and do arise, abilities that often don't seem to fit into normal, rational explanations. To be attached to them though is to mistake fools gold for the real thing. They are curiousities at best and ultimately of no real significance.
That is self consciousness, the delusion of separation between ourselves and others and it's a killer. One reason why belief is so seductive is because it does allay temporarily the awkwardness of self cosciousness. Ultimately though it makes it worse. It is not a solution unless you can be without such self consciousness in all circumstances at all times. And that is what practice brings about.
Beautiful.
When I ponder spiritual questions which I haven't the knowledge to answer sometimes my brain gets ahead of me and fills with ideas. And "what ifs". And I used to make myself panic with these foolish thoughts. When I lost control in this way it was excruciatingly painful. Far worse than any other kind of pain I have ever suffered.
It became necessary to pull myself out. But it was very difficult. Nothing I told myself calmed my panic. I doubted everything and everyone. I was desperate for relief. It was a catastrophic crisis of faith.
How could I have faith in anything that I could not prove for myself? How could I trust the "truth" from other human beings? What if everything I had been told was all a lie? What if the "truth" was something horrible? What if this life was just practice for something even worse?
So I brought it all back down to the very basics.
I asked myself "What can I really trust and have real faith in?" And the answer was me.
And I asked myself "Why do you have faith in yourself?" And the answer was "because I love. I have the capacity to love unconditionally and with impartiality."
If I couldn't trust anyone or anything else, I could trust that.
So, in answer to the original thread, I believe in love.
Love,
Brigid.
But you're also right in a fundamental way. We cannot get the answer/s from someone else, whether it's the Buddha, Jesus Christ, Lao Tsu or Yogi Berra (well Yogi Berra may well be the one exception here). Whatever answer we get from someone else is just that - someone else's answer. What Practice can do though is encourage us to cut the crap and find our own answers, answers that aren't second hand, answers that don't always wrap up neatly in a softly spoken platitude, but do come out of the furnace of transformation. That answer, strangely enough, is always, and it really is always, in accord with the answer that every person who's ever awakened has found. It doesn't differ by so much as a hair's breadth, but it is also completely unique and completely first hand.
Even more unnerving for many of us, it comes through attention, through doubt, and then through refusing to be fobbed off with anything short of knowing in the bones, through taking the questioning so deep that we become one whole mass of crap cutting, doubt. Do you doubt Buddhism? Great. Doubt your teacher - even better, doubt yourself - best of all. And that hurts like hell at times.
"Morpheus: I imagine that right now, you're feeling a bit like Alice. Hmm? Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
Neo: You could say that.
Morpheus: I see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that's not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why not?
Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
Morpheus: I know *exactly* what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Neo: The Matrix.
Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
Neo: Yes.
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind."
In many Zendos, the figure on the altar is the Bodhisattva Manjushri, the embodiment of awakened wisdom or Prajna. He holds a sword in one hand. The sword of Prajna which kills and gives life freely and without hesitation. Doubt, when plumbed to the very very bottom is no different from Manjushri's sword. It cuts through all the bull, all the stories that we tell ourselves, all our beliefs and all our notions of who and what we are, and that is supremely dangerous to 'me', to the me that believes in anything most of all.
"There is I think a pervasive tendency to think of Zen or Buddhism as a polite answer to all our woes, a civilized and benign path toward a comfortable happiness. There is a good deal of truth to this I think. Buddhism is a rational and a reasonable way to live with clarity and kindness. But at its bottom, at the level of questioning, which, it seems to me, one inevitably encounters if one's study goes deep enough, there are problems in relation to the ordinary world. These problems however are seen as such only from the outside. Because the person who is willing to question all the way up to the end of questioning and beyond can live or die, win or lose, come or go freely.
All of this is expressed in the traditional Zen formulation of the two styles of teaching, the teaching that gives life, and the teaching takes life. Both are necessary. There's a story quoted in the Blue Cliff Record of the pilgrim Sudhana who goes to the bodhisattva Manjushri to study herbology. Manjushri asks him to begin his study by finding an herb that is not medicinal. Sudhana looks everywhere but cannot find a single herb that isn't medicinal. He comes back and shares this uncanny fact with Manjushri. Everything is medicinal. Everything, whether we like it or not, whether it fits in with our plans or not, is medicinal. Manjushri says, then find me an herb that is medicinal and Sudhana picks up a blade of grass at his feet and hands it to Manjushri. Manjushri says, "This blade of grass is a sword that gives life and that takes life."
We all understand and approve of giving life: nurturing ourselves and others, forgiving ourselves and others, taking care of ourselves and others. But taking life is more difficult. It involves renunciation, letting go and giving up. Not only of things in our lives but of our life itself, of our very identity. Only in this way can we be truly free and at ease and only in this way can we really be kind. Questioning takes us this far."
On Questioning
by Zoketsu Norman Fischer
On Questioning
And of course, not forgetting what Yogi Berra said,
"I'm not going to buy my kids an encyclopedia. Let them walk to school like I did."
Wow! That's perfect. I actually understand. I can use that. I hadn't actually thought that way about it before. I just got chills. I get it! That's the most comforting thing I've ever heard. And here I was thinking there would be no quick comfort in Buddhism, just a lot of sharp edges etc. Thank you so much, Genryu.
IT would follow, then, that DOCTRINE would have to play second-fiddle to intuition and experience, and that belief would not be as important as putting that "belief" into practice. Now, if that's true, how can you "put into practice" belief in a person (such as a member of the Christian Trinity), and call that the culmination of your religion (Somebody please, help me here!)? I guess what I mean is that, would a Buddhist ever say, "Buddha is the Answer?"
I really liked Brigid's initial post on this thread: After all, the question was what she believed, not what practices she engaged in. However, I really enjoyed the interchange between her and our Friend, ZenMonk Genryu. A lot of good things to ponder. THANKS TO ALL!