Worship

MindGate

In Christianity, they worship God.
In Islam, there is Allah.
In Judaism, there is Yahweh.
In Hinduism, there are many gods that are worshiped.
In Confucianism, the followers NEARLY worship Confucius.
In Buddhism... is there any need for worshiping anything or anyone?

genkaku

OK, I'll play.

The knee-jerk answer to the question is no, there is no need.

But I think a more truthful answer is that although Buddhism does not prescribe worship, there is plenty of worship that goes on ... at least at first. Ideas, concepts, philosophies, explanations, meanings ... they may not be a god or gods, but they are often clung to as if they were.

An internet definition of "worship" includes the following:

-- to feel or show respect and love for a god
▸
-- to love and admire someone or something very much

Using the second of these two definitions, the initial curiosity or admiration of Buddhism might be called a kind of worship. That worship leads (as worship generally alleges it hopes) to action. That action leads to experience. And that experience makes worship unnecessary at a minimum and a disaster otherwise.

Just my take.

Anupassī

Devotion to the Buddha and to noble members of the Sangha is good, so long as you don't let that overtake your sense of sila. Breaking somebody's nose because they spat on a Buddha statue is counterproductive.

Jeffrey

Is the purpose of Buddhism to avoid worship?

federica

No, the purpose of Buddhism is to "avoid*" suffering.









(*Before someone picks me up on the 'avoid' word....understand, realise and cease....)

twilly

Buddhism is a non-theistic practice so there's no one/nothing to worship.

tess

OK, I'll play.

The knee-jerk answer to the question is no, there is no need.

But I think a more truthful answer is that although Buddhism does not prescribe worship, there is plenty of worship that goes on ... at least at first. Ideas, concepts, philosophies, explanations, meanings ... they may not be a god or gods, but they are often clung to as if they were.

An internet definition of "worship" includes the following:

-- to feel or show respect and love for a god
▸
-- to love and admire someone or something very much

Using the second of these two definitions, the initial curiosity or admiration of Buddhism might be called a kind of worship. That worship leads (as worship generally alleges it hopes) to action. That action leads to experience. And that experience makes worship unnecessary at a minimum and a disaster otherwise.

Just my take.

You are the very wise person.
Your observations and ideas are :clap: and :bowdown:

However, do you ask yourself a question why humanity is addicted to the worship?

I am sure you do but please tell me how do you cope with all those dogmas and remind the idealist and ''realist''?

tess

No, the purpose of Buddhism is to "avoid*" suffering.









(*Before someone picks me up on the 'avoid' word....understand, realise and cease....)

Suffering : to yourself/ Non self as the Buddhist say/ or to everything which is going around you?


I know that those terms are contradiction. However, the way I see Buddhism in the 21 century is: the desire to become non self: i.e. my own karma and my belifs.

I will have to put up with outside world / but they have put the food on my table/.

Yes, let me search for my own nirvana; meditate for compassion, non violence but the same time I am not going to take part in the outside world.

tess

PLS note I don’t want to pick up here political discussion.


The large number Buddhists live in the III world countries with all the consequences of it.

However, when it comes to such an old philosophy and Buddha teaching this should have very little influence.

genkaku

However, do you ask yourself a question why humanity is addicted to the worship?
________________________________

Tess -- I don't mean to be flip, but a long-ago bit of doggerel leaped to mind:

I love myself,
I think I'm grand.
I go to the movies
And hold my hand.
I put my arm
Around my waist
And when I'm fresh,
I slap my face.

Worship elevates the status of the worshiper. Even the cowering before the brilliant light of whatever god elevates the status of the one who cowers. Worship also has a way of suggesting that I may somehow be saved or succored when life's tragedies beset me. I see nothing unusual about it and it does form a good starting point.

Suffering is an equal-opportunity employer. You don't have to be Buddhist to suffer, to feel uncertain, to wonder which direction is the right direction. Everyone does the best they can to be happy. Everyone chooses a direction they hope will bring peace.

But some ways work better than others. Chocolate ice cream, for example, is a nice way to be happy, but it has no staying power. Worship often suggests there is a being or power that is beyond my own sphere. But the question lingers -- what power or what being? Buddhism offers a regimen of observations (The Four Noble Truths) and suggestions (The Eightfold Path). We may credit the Four Noble Truths or even worship them. But it is in the Eightfold Path and the exercise of its suggestions that worship is left in the dust, so to speak. Attention and responsibility take over where adoration and separation once held sway.

In short, beginning with "me," we come home to our own true selves. It's not a matter of worship. It's just a matter of fact.

Just noodling.

taiyaki

faith or surrendering is the last action.

vinlyn

Buddhism is a non-theistic practice so there's no one/nothing to worship.

Which is why in nations which are predominantly Buddhist, no ones kneels in front of the Buddha statue at the temple, no one lights incense, no one offers flowers, and no one offers candles.

Oops.

:eek2:

Yacababy

Buddhism is a non-theistic practice so there's no one/nothing to worship.

Which is why in nations which are predominantly Buddhist, no ones kneels in front of the Buddha statue at the temple, no one lights incense, no one offers flowers, and no one offers candles.

Oops.

:eek2:

However the Buddha said he was not to be worshipped. So because people so choose to does not mean that's what the religion was founded on or that he is to be looked at as a God or a person to worship. Not stepping on toes, just sharing my bit ^_^

vinlyn

Buddhism is a non-theistic practice so there's no one/nothing to worship.

Which is why in nations which are predominantly Buddhist, no ones kneels in front of the Buddha statue at the temple, no one lights incense, no one offers flowers, and no one offers candles.

Oops.

:eek2:

However the Buddha said he was not to be worshipped. So because people so choose to does not mean that's what the religion was founded on or that he is to be looked at as a God or a person to worship. Not stepping on toes, just sharing my bit ^_^

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying what people actually do...and I'll be that the vast majority of the Buddhists on this website would "worship" Buddha when they walked into a Buddhist temple in Thailand (for example). Been there, done it, seen it.

Yacababy

Definitely. So it does make it hard to distinguish. Or do we just look too much into what others do? Or what the Pali says? I guess that's for each individual to decide
With love, Jen

compassionate_warrior

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying what people actually do...and I'll be that the vast majority of the Buddhists on this website would "worship" Buddha when they walked into a Buddhist temple in Thailand (for example). Been there, done it, seen it.

I don't understand this point. Why would people here behave any differently in SE Asia than they do at home? Unless it's to respect local customs and do as the locals do. But someone said that in Buddhist countries, locals don't kneel before the Buddha's statue, light incense or candles, offer flowers. So why would visiting foreigners do any of that?

vinlyn

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying what people actually do...and I'll be that the vast majority of the Buddhists on this website would "worship" Buddha when they walked into a Buddhist temple in Thailand (for example). Been there, done it, seen it.

I don't understand this point. Why would people here behave any differently in SE Asia than they do at home? Unless it's to respect local customs and do as the locals do. But someone said that in Buddhist countries, locals don't kneel before the Buddha's statue, light incense or candles, offer flowers. So why would visiting foreigners do any of that?

Excuse me, but I have traveled extensively in Thailand (and to some extent in Burma and Malaysia) over a period of 30 years, and lived in Thailand. I've visited hundreds, if not over a thousand Thai Buddhist temples in every region of the country. The locals always kneel before Buddha statues, usually light both candles and incense, and often offer flowers. Period.

compassionate_warrior

That makes a lot more sense. So why did you say earlier that no one kneels, etc.? Was that sarcasm? (Sarcasm really doesn't work online--too hard to interpret correctly.)

MindGate

I've read this in a book:

Udanavarga 16.15 states:

For the pure, it is always a holy night. For the pure, every day is the Sabbath. For the pure, with their pure acts, it is always time for worship.



Is this a Buddhist text that says this?

Tekchef

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying what people actually do...and I'll be that the vast majority of the Buddhists on this website would "worship" Buddha when they walked into a Buddhist temple in Thailand (for example). Been there, done it, seen it.

I don't understand this point. Why would people here behave any differently in SE Asia than they do at home? Unless it's to respect local customs and do as the locals do. But someone said that in Buddhist countries, locals don't kneel before the Buddha's statue, light incense or candles, offer flowers. So why would visiting foreigners do any of that?

Excuse me, but I have traveled extensively in Thailand (and to some extent in Burma and Malaysia) over a period of 30 years, and lived in Thailand. I've visited hundreds, if not over a thousand Thai Buddhist temples in every region of the country. The locals always kneel before Buddha statues, usually light both candles and incense, and often offer flowers. Period.

What you are seeing is a sign of respect for Gautama as a great teacher...not a god. Also keep in mind that Gautama's image is kept around to remind us that we all have Buddha nature in us..we can be a Buddha also. By bowing/showing respect to the Buddha, you are bowing/showing respect to the Buddha in yourself.

Malachy12

Bowing is respectful in the east. In some cultures it's to avert the eyes, in western culture it's to make eye contact. For some it's to laugh and be loud, and other cultures it's to be somber and calm. You have to use cultural relativism when you judge the behavior of others. When you see Buddhist traditions being performed abroad, always look at it with cultural relativism (that's a real word).
If Buddhists worshiped anything it would probably be "compassion" both interpersonal and intrapersonal. Buddhists are always saying "nothing is divine" and "everything is divine", and they mean they both are true at the same time.

vinlyn

What you are seeing is a sign of respect for Gautama as a great teacher...not a god. Also keep in mind that Gautama's image is kept around to remind us that we all have Buddha nature in us..we can be a Buddha also. By bowing/showing respect to the Buddha, you are bowing/showing respect to the Buddha in yourself.

I don't agree with you. I have spent hundreds of hours in Buddhist temples in Thailand. It isn't a simple bow. It is getting down on your knees, clasping your hands at forehead level, and touching your forehead to the ground (or floor) three times, while saying (in Thai), "To the Buddha I go for refuge. To the Dhamma I go for refuge. To the Sangha I go for refuge."

It is lighting incense to offer to Buddha. It is lighting a candle to offer to Buddha. It is placing a flower at the altar to offer to Buddha. And then, many of the people (not all) pray for something...the health of a relative or themselves, a winning lottery ticket, and so forth.

federica

Does it matter?

Everybody interprets the word 'worship' for themselves. Hndus see the Buddha as a God. Buddhists - don't, but some, by their behaviour might be seen to be doing exactly that. And it doesn't really matter either way, what others do.... does it?

be a lamp unto yourselves.
And follow the practise which makes you feel more connected to your calling, and devote yourselves to developing Compassion, Unconditional love, Kindness and equanimity.
At the end of the day, it's what YOU do that counts.
And it little matters what others think of it.

Ric

I will quote Walpola Rahula, in What the Buddha Taught

"In Buddhist countries there are simple and beautiful customs and ceremonies on religious occasions. They have little to do with the real Path. But they have their value in satisfying certain religious emotions and the needs of those who are less advanced with helping them gradually along the Path."

Malachy12

@vinlyn cultural relevance.

Jeffrey

vinlyn

I will quote Walpola Rahula, in What the Buddha Taught

"In Buddhist countries there are simple and beautiful customs and ceremonies on religious occasions. They have little to do with the real Path. But they have their value in satisfying certain religious emotions and the needs of those who are less advanced with helping them gradually along the Path."

Now this I agree with.

DhammaDhatu

In Buddhism... is there any need for worshiping anything or anyone?

Hi

Whilst not required for liberation, the Buddha taught "worship" serves at least one purpose, which is to smooth out our rough edges

The Buddha taught worship matures morality, matures concentration & matures wisdom

How? By developing a sense of gratitude and seeing cause & effect clearly

If our mind does not acknowledge gratefully that the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha are the source of the teachings that have resulted in our minds liberation & happiness, then how can our mind be dwelling in 100% reality, both ultimate & conventional?

So "worship" can help beautify our mind and smooth out our rough edges

Kind regards



sutta reference: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn06/sn06.002.than.html

Past Buddhas,
future Buddhas,
& he who is the Buddha now,
removing the sorrow of many —

all have dwelt,
will dwell, he dwells,
revering the true Dhamma.
This, for Buddhas, is a natural law.

Therefore one who desires his own good,
aspiring for greatness,
should respect the true Dhamma,
recollecting the Buddhas' Teaching.

twilly

What's missing here is that there are many forms of Buddhism. Some worship, some don't. I've chosen Theravadan Buddhism (which don't) because I like the simplicity. If it's not in the Pali canon (which is the oldest canon), they don't do it.

But those forms of Buddhism which include other canons often do worship and even invoke the intercession of deities. They're polytheistic.

Theravadans do respect and revere the Buddha as one would any great person. This is not worship.

vinlyn

What's missing here is that there are many forms of Buddhism. Some worship, some don't. I've chosen Theravadan Buddhism (which don't) because I like the simplicity. If it's not in the Pali canon (which is the oldest canon), they don't do it.

But those forms of Buddhism which include other canons often do worship and even invoke the intercession of deities. They're polytheistic.

Theravadans do respect and revere the Buddha as one would any great person. This is not worship.

Have you ever lived in a Theravadan country, such as Thailand?

Jeffrey

twilly the deities aren't outside ourselves from my understanding

MindGate

I've read this in a book:

Udanavarga 16.15 states:

For the pure, it is always a holy night. For the pure, every day is the Sabbath. For the pure, with their pure acts, it is always time for worship.



Is this a Buddhist text that says this?

please read this

Ric

I've read this in a book:

Udanavarga 16.15 states:

For the pure, it is always a holy night. For the pure, every day is the Sabbath. For the pure, with their pure acts, it is always time for worship.



Is this a Buddhist text that says this?

please read this

Since it references the Sabbath I doubt its a Buddhist text. Its more likely Jewish or Christian.

Arjquad

It is lighting incense to offer to Buddha. It is lighting a candle to offer to Buddha. It is placing a flower at the altar to offer to Buddha. And then, many of the people (not all) pray for something...the health of a relative or themselves, a winning lottery ticket, and so forth.

Is that any diffrent than leaving flowers at a family members or friends grave?

Ric

It is lighting incense to offer to Buddha. It is lighting a candle to offer to Buddha. It is placing a flower at the altar to offer to Buddha. And then, many of the people (not all) pray for something...the health of a relative or themselves, a winning lottery ticket, and so forth.

Is that any diffrent than leaving flowers at a family members or friends grave?

yea, the part where you pray for health, lottery...and so forth.

Arjquad

Well I kinda forgot to leave that part out

zombiegirl

I've read this in a book:

Udanavarga 16.15 states:

For the pure, it is always a holy night. For the pure, every day is the Sabbath. For the pure, with their pure acts, it is always time for worship.



Is this a Buddhist text that says this?

please read this

Since it references the Sabbath I doubt its a Buddhist text. Its more likely Jewish or Christian.

"The Udānavarga is an early Buddhist collection of topically organized chapters (Sanskrit: varga) of aphoristic verses or "utterances" (Sanskrit: udāna) attributed to the Buddha and his disciples. While not part of the Pali Canon, the Udānavarga has many chapter titles, verses and an overall format similar to those found in the Pali Canon's Dhammapada and Udāna. At this time, there exist one Sanskrit recension, two Chinese recensions and two or three Tibetan recensions of the Udānavarga.

i agree with ric though, it most certainly sounded jewish/christian to me. could be the translation.

twilly

twilly the deities aren't outside ourselves from my understanding

That would be nice. But when a group is saying prayers of intercession to a deity, how do you square that?

twilly

What's missing here is that there are many forms of Buddhism. Some worship, some don't. I've chosen Theravadan Buddhism (which don't) because I like the simplicity. If it's not in the Pali canon (which is the oldest canon), they don't do it.

But those forms of Buddhism which include other canons often do worship and even invoke the intercession of deities. They're polytheistic.

Theravadans do respect and revere the Buddha as one would any great person. This is not worship.

Have you ever lived in a Theravadan country, such as Thailand?

Nope. But I understand that Buddhist practices have been corrupted in some countries. For example, it is common to pay a teacher before the message is delivered. You'll even find that in the US. But the Dharma is supposed to be given without payment.

dorje

That would be nice. But when a group is saying prayers of intercession to a deity, how do you square that?

Personally I regard intercessionary prayers in Buddhism to be something to inspire the group to act. For example, when my sangha prays to Avalokiteshvara to help someone who has just lost a family member, we are ultimately inspiring ourselves to have compassion for bereaved and help that person in any way we possibly can.

Jeffrey

"That would be nice. But when a group is saying prayers of intercession to a deity, how do you square that?"

Your asking for the awakened qualities of love and compassion to arise. There is no skin separating self and other so the usual ideas of who 'you' are don't apply. Just awakened activity, not beings.

Ric

Personally I regard intercessionary prayers in Buddhism to be something to inspire the group to act. For example, when my sangha prays to Avalokiteshvara to help someone who has just lost a family member, we are ultimately inspiring ourselves to have compassion for bereaved and help that person in any way we possibly can.

seems rather superfluous, Why not just skip Avalokiteshvara and go directly to inspire yourself, If you dont believe you are actually praying to Avalokiteshvara.

Jeffrey

Avalokiteshevra is a tool I believe. No being has any inherent existence. Not even avalokiteshevra was avalokiteshevra in a way. Its like remembering 'lists' just a tool.

Many in the west the image of Jesus is evocative of love. For others it could be a figure in their experience, a beloved friend or pet.

Ric

Quoting Gunaratana talking about the five lower fetters,

"Rites and Rituals- The belief that you can free yourself by following set formulas and adhering to a particular belief system. Reliance on rites and rituals to do your spiritual work instead of finding the truth through your own efforts. Note that it is not just the belief in the rituals that does the harm, but the attachment to them"

Jeffrey

Yet you cannot deny that an image or story is evocative. This is how we respond to art. I think something different is meant by Gunaratana. Rituals contain information. Just as reading sutras itself is not liberating so to rituals are not liberating on their own. Both sutras and rituals are obstructions when attached to.

For example suppose a relative who is non-buddhist is dying. Intellectual attachment to the sutras will lead you to want to explain something intellectual which is wrong. In that situation you need calm and sensitivity.

Ric

Jeffrey, I think your ignoring one part of his statement. "Note that it is not just the belief in the rituals that does the harm". To me its clear that in his opinion, belief in rituals cause harm.

dorje

Personally I regard intercessionary prayers in Buddhism to be something to inspire the group to act. For example, when my sangha prays to Avalokiteshvara to help someone who has just lost a family member, we are ultimately inspiring ourselves to have compassion for bereaved and help that person in any way we possibly can.

seems rather superfluous, Why not just skip Avalokiteshvara and go directly to inspire yourself, If you dont believe you are actually praying to Avalokiteshvara.

Because for some people they feel they are weak and helpless, and they cannot do much. So in order for them to realize compassion for themselves they require something to relate to, Avalokiteshvara in this case.

Jeffrey

"Jeffrey, I think your ignoring one part of his statement. "Note that it is not just the belief in the rituals that does the harm". To me its clear that in his opinion, belief in rituals cause harm."

I don't see why that is true that belief in rituals causes harm. Can you give some examples of rituals doing harm or is this some nebulous buzzword 'rituals' refering to that you don't like guys in funny clothing? I can give an example of the ritual of prostrating. This represents refuge in the triple gem and letting go of the ego. It has an emotional response. When you bow to the ground it literally gives an experience of letting go of the ego.

Would belief in sutras also cause harm. Both are tools to internalize dharmic realization.

Ric

no, I am just stating that at least one Buddhist monk find rituals actually harmful. As in one of the lower fetters. I personally think they can offer some use but more often then not people just focus on ritual and take away all the hard work they should be doing.

Jeffrey

I asked my sangha about this on our forum last week. Heres a response I liked and thought was helpful to me to understand.

Hi Jeff,

My first response to this is that non-attachment to anything is not the same as non-engagement. Attachment to anything is likely to cause problems - whether it be people, jobs, reputation,rituals, material things, comfort etc etc. But attachment means clinging, not being able to let go, defining yourself in relation to whatever you're attached to in such a way that losing it threatens your peace of mind, your identity, your security.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't have friends, live in houses, have jobs, do rituals etc etc - just that we need to be able to have a confidence in ourselves, our Buddha Nature, that doesn't rely on them. We may be sad at their loss but our trust in what is indestructible gives us great inner strength. I got this quote from Tricycle today that seems appropriate:

Be Fearless, Be Brave

There’s a sacredness to everyone’s life. In order to relate to it, you have to build confidence. Because of this need to build confidence, we speak of “warriorship.” There’s a tremendous amount of fear in people’s lives. I think it’s based on not wanting to reveal oneself. You’re always protecting yourself. So the journey of meditation and the journey of Shambhala is “One has to be fearless. One has to be brave. One must break out of the world which is comfort-oriented.”
-Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche, "A New Place, A New Time"

Being comfort-oriented is the same as attachment.

Love [name omitted]

PS (added after a little thought) Of course one can always choose to practice non-attachment by practising non-engagement ie being a renunciate and living a pared down, simple life focused on the purely spiritual. I remember feeling that option was one I was given at the age of 17 - after completing my full time schooling and before taking a job. After some time considering and weighing it all up I chose to engage fully with the world as I felt I would learn more that way - that was my personal path - but I can see and value this kind of renunciation as a life full of potential. However, I do feel there is the possibility of becoming attached to non-attachment. Tricky, the ego!

NOTaGangsta

There's no point worshipping the Buddha, he won't give you that new xbox 360...