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meditation
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Yes, but YOU are NOT that unborn, unconditioned.
You are disagreeing with what the Buddha said. Any translation that lists "thought" specifically as an aggregate is a poor translation. The Buddha also said that "The absense of thought is the state of the unconditioned." The aggregates are thought. 'Form' is the thought of "solidity".
As far as I'm aware, thought is included in the term sankhara (mental formation/fermentation). Am I disagreeing with the Buddha? Perhaps, perhaps... If I am, could you please be so kind as to give me the exact reference in which the Buddha states that we are thought, thought is our "self", or any such combination which would make you assume such a thing.
Jason
The Dhammapada
Choices
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
"Look how he abused me and hurt me,
How he threw me down and robbed me."
Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.
You too shall pass away.
Knowing this, how can you quarrel?
How easily the wind overturns a frail tree.
Seek happiness in the senses,
Indulge in food and sleep,
And you too will be uprooted.
The wind cannot overturn a mountain.
Temptation cannot touch the man
Who is awake, strong and humble,
Who masters himself and minds the dharma.
If a man's thoughts are muddy,
If he is reckless and full of deceit,
How can he wear the yellow robe?
Whoever is master of his own nature,
Bright, clear and true,
He may indeed wear the yellow robe.
Mistaking the false for the true,
And the true for the false,
You overlook the heart
And fill yourself with desire.
See the false as false,
The true as true.
Look into your heart.
Follow your nature.
An unreflecting mind is a poor roof.
Passion, like the rain, floods the house.
But if the roof is strong, there is shelter.
Whoever follows impure thoughts
Suffers in this world and the next.
In both worlds he suffers
And how greatly
When he sees the wrong he has done.
But whoever follows the dharma
Is joyful here and joyful there.
In both worlds he rejoices
And how greatly
When he sees the good he has done.
For great is the harvest in this world,
And greater still in the next.
However many holy words you read,
However many you speak,
What good will they do you
If you do not act upon them?
Are you a shepherd
Who counts another man's sheep,
Never sharing the way?
Read as few words as you like,
And speak fewer.
But act upon the dharma.
Give up the old ways -
Passion, enmity, folly.
Know the truth and find peace.
Share the way.
Mind is the forerunner of all actions.
All Deeds are led by the mind, created by the mind.
If one speaks or acts with a currupt mind, suffering follows,
As the whell follows the hoof of an ox pulling a cart.
etc.
Keith
Talk about poor translations! I much prefer this one:
1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.
2. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.
5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.
6. There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels.
7. Just as a storm throws down a weak tree, so does Mara overpower the man who lives for the pursuit of pleasures, who is uncontrolled in his senses, immoderate in eating, indolent, and dissipated. 1
8. Just as a storm cannot prevail against a rocky mountain, so Mara can never overpower the man who lives meditating on the impurities, who is controlled in his senses, moderate in eating, and filled with faith and earnest effort. 2
9. Whoever being depraved, devoid of self-control and truthfulness, should don the monk's yellow robe, he surely is not worthy of the robe.
10. But whoever is purged of depravity, well-established in virtues and filled with self-control and truthfulness, he indeed is worthy of the yellow robe.
11. Those who mistake the unessential to be essential and the essential to be unessential, dwelling in wrong thoughts, never arrive at the essential.
12. Those who know the essential to be essential and the unessential to be unessential, dwelling in right thoughts, do arrive at the essential.
13. Just as rain breaks through an ill-thatched house, so passion penetrates an undeveloped mind.
14. Just as rain does not break through a well-thatched house, so passion never penetrates a well-developed mind.
15. The evil-doer grieves here and hereafter; he grieves in both the worlds. He laments and is afflicted, recollecting his own impure deeds.
16. The doer of good rejoices here and hereafter; he rejoices in both the worlds. He rejoices and exults, recollecting his own pure deeds.
17. The evil-doer suffers here and hereafter; he suffers in both the worlds. The thought, "Evil have I done," torments him, and he suffers even more when gone to realms of woe.
18. The doer of good delights here and hereafter; he delights in both the worlds. The thought, "Good have I done," delights him, and he delights even more when gone to realms of bliss.
19. Much though he recites the sacred texts, but acts not accordingly, that heedless man is like a cowherd who only counts the cows of others — he does not partake of the blessings of the holy life.
20. Little though he recites the sacred texts, but puts the Teaching into practice, forsaking lust, hatred, and delusion, with true wisdom and emancipated mind, clinging to nothing of this or any other world — he indeed partakes of the blessings of a holy life.
Either way, it does not mean that we are thoughts.
Jason
In mine not yours Jason.
Keith
And neither am I not that unborn and unconditioned. It's not something else. "IT is all of you, you are not IT." The unborn, uncoditioned isn't somewhere else, it's not a thing. If one experiences things as they are, then that includes that unborn, or as Bankei called it, 'The Unborn Buddha Mind'. There are generally two ways of talking about the self. The one is to confuse the term with something abiding and substantial. The other is to recognise that it is a combination of different elements, constantly in flux. It's a process not a thing and it perfectly manifests the unborn, unconditioned. The problem with reading translations of Buddhist texts, however good they may be, without an experential context, is that it's not understood clearly that they are a shorthand, they are indications, given to a particular audience at a particular time. Without an understanding of that context, the words are confused with what they point to. This may be of use:
You've all assembled here before daybreak to listen to what I have to say. I'm going to tell you about the Buddha-mind, the mind of the Unborn. You've come here this early in the morning because you expected to hear something quite out of the ordinary. You wouldn't be here if you didn't.
Those of you who have reached the age of fifty have lived your fifty years totally unaware that you've had a Buddha-mind. If you're thirty, you've been ignorant of your Buddha - mind for thirty years, right up till this morning. You've all been slumbering the years away. But today at this gathering, if you come to understand thoroughly that you have an unborn Buddha-mind and go on to live in the Unborn, at that moment you become a living Buddha for countless future ages.
My only reason for speaking to people like this is because I want to make everyone know about the marvelously illuminating clarity of the unborn Buddha-mind. When you've confirmed it for yourself, you're the Buddha-mind from then on. No different from Shakamuni himself. The Buddha-body is yours once and for all, for endless ages, and you won't ever fall into the evil ways again.
The Unborn, The Life and Teachings of Zen Master Bankei,
Translated by Norman Waddell
Take it up with him.
Keith
Unborn and imperishable
Is the original mind
Earth, water, fire and wind
A temporary lodging for the night
Attached to this
Ephemeral burning house
You yourselves light the fire, kindle the flames
In which you’re consumed
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Keep your mind as it was
When you came into the world
And instantly this very self
Is a living "thus-come" one
Ideas of
What’s good , what’s bad
All due to
This self of yours
In winter, a bonfire
Spells delight
But when summertime arrives
What a nuisance it becomes!
And the breezes
You loved in summer
Even before the autumn’s gone
Already have become a bother
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Throwing your whole life away
Sacrificed to the thirst for gold
But when you saw your life was through
All your money was no use
Clinging, craving and the like
I don’t have them on my mind
That’s why nowadays I can say
The whole world is truly mine!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Since, after all this floating world
Is unreal
Instead of holding onto things in
Your mind, go and sing!
Only original mind exists
In the past and in the future too
Instead of holding onto things in
Your mind, let them go!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Having created
the demon mind yourself
When it torments you mercilessly
You’re to blame and no one else
When you do wrong
our mind’s the demon
There’s no hell
To be found outside
Abominating hell
Longing for heaven
You make yourself suffer
In a joyful world
You think that good
Means hating what is bad
What’s bad is
The hating mind itself
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Fame, wealth, eating and
drinking, sleep and sensual delight --
Once you’ve leaned the Five Desires
They become
Your guide in life
Notions of what one should do
Never existed from the start
Fighting about what’s right, what’s wrong
That’s the doing of the "I"
When your study
Of Buddhism is through
You find
You haven’t anything new
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
If you think the mind
That attains enlightenment
Is "mine"
Your thoughts will wrestle, one with the other
These days I’m not bothering about
Getting enlightenment all the time
And the result is
I wake up in the morning feeling fine!
Praying for salvation in the world to come
Praying for your own selfish ends
Is only piling on more and more
Self-centeredness and arrogance
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Die -- then live
Day and night within the world
Once you’ve done this, then you can
Hold the world right in your hand!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
If you search for the Pure Land
Bent upon your own reward
You’ll only find yourself
despised
By the Buddha after all!
People have no enemies
None at all right from the start
You create them all yourself
Fighting over right and wrong
Clear are the workings of cause
and effect
You become deluded, but
don’t know
It’s something that you’ve done yourself
That’s what’s called self- centeredness
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Though the years may creep ahead
Mind itself can never age
This mind that’s
Always just the same
Wonderful! Marvelous!
When you’ve searched
and found at last
The one who never will grow old
-- "I alone!"
The Pure Land
Where one communes at peace
Is here and now, it’s not remote
Millions and millions of leagues away
When someone tosses you a tea bowl
-- Catch it!
Catch it nimbly with soft cotton
With the cotton of your skillful mind!
- Zenshu, pp. 519-522 -- trans. Peter Haskel, Bankei Zen, pp. 125-132
This is simply my opinion on the matter, but I am fairly confident about it: That we are merely thought sounds like something the Yogacara (Mind Only) school came up with. I do not believe that such an idea was ever taught by the Buddha himself. That school of Buddhism came about much later in history than the Buddha, based primarily on the writtings of Asanga, Vasubandhu, and Dharmakirti.
Jason
No, I was referring to kowtaaia's translation.
Jason
That was my initial thought. Just checking.
Keith
The mind is thought, for godsake! The subjective state or psychological phenomenon is the reality of thought. Let's just take the first part:
1. Mind (THOUGHT) precedes all mental states. Mind (THOUGHT) is their chief; they are all mind (THOUGHT)-wrought. If with an impure mind (THOUGHT) a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
Buddha mind, the 'unborn', ...whatever you want to call it...is NOT yours, is not had. It is not "within" because the within is the reality of the phenomenon of thought. If you are there, it's not it; it's an illusion.
"In Buddhism there are many names for ultimate freedom: Buddha-Nature, the Unconditioned, Dharmakaya, the Unborn, the Pure Heart, Mind Essence, Nature of Mind, Ultimate Bodhicitta, Nirvana. Various Buddhist traditions give it different names, each emphasizing certain aspects of this absolute nature. Although philosophical disputes often arise because of these different perspectives–some of these issues have been debated for thousands of years–a harmonizing understanding comes when we move away from the confines of metaphysical systems or statements and enter into the world of direct experience."
Chris Maclean - Vipassana teacher
NOT! NO WAY! NEVER EVER!
The Demonstration of the Inconceivable State of Buddhahood Sutra
Thus have I heard:
Once the Buddha was dwelling in the garden of Anathapindika, in the Jeta Grove near Shravasti, accompanied by one thousand monks, ten thousand Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas, and many gods of the Realm of Desire and the Realm of Form.
At that time, Bodhisattva-Mahasattva Manjusri and the god Suguna were both present among the assembly.
The World-Honored One told Manjusri, "You should explain the profound state of Buddhahood for the celestial beings and the Bodhisattvas of this assembly."
Manjusri said to the Buddha, "So be it, World-Honored One. If good men and good women wish to know the state of Buddhahood, they should know that it is not a state of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body, or the mind; nor is it a state of forms, sounds, scents, tastes, textures, or mental objects. World-Honored One, the non-state is the state of Buddhahood. This being the case, what is the state of supreme enlightenment as attained by the Buddha?"
The Buddha said, "It is the state of emptiness, because all views are equal. It is the state of sign-less-ness, because all signs are equal. It is the state of wish-less-ness, because the three realms are equal. It is the state of non-action, because all actions are equal. It is the state of the unconditioned, because all conditioned things are equal."
Manjusri asked, "World-Honored One, what is the state of the unconditioned?"
The Buddha said, "The absence of thought is the state of the unconditioned."
You are one who is taken in with regard to present qualities:
Have fun trying to prove your point to someone else.
Jason
Debate is about challenging or attacking assertions, not the person.
Regardless, your post is non-sequitur because it addresses your misunderstanding rather than what has actually been said.
Here's one for you, though.
"As for the person who says, 'Feeling is not the self: My self is oblivious [to feeling],' he should be addressed as follows: 'My friend, where nothing whatsoever is sensed (experienced) at all, would there be the thought, "I am"?'"
"No, lord."
"Thus in this manner, Ananda, one does not see fit to assume that 'Feeling is not my self: My self is oblivious [to feeling].'
DN 15
"This question is not proper," said the Exalted One.
I do not teach that there is one who feels.
If, however, the question is put thus:
'Conditioned through what does feeling arise?' then the answer will be 'Through sense impressions as a condition feeling [arises]; with feeling as a condition, craving [arises]."
--SN II 13
Keith
Is this so?
Jason
Lets see, kowtaaia also said thought is not one of the five aggregates that the five aggregate are only thoughts and that if it is included it is a mistranslation. So, Jason suggested calling it mental formations. Its still part of the five aggregates. I dont think you answered this kowtaaia.
Keith
I wasn't aware that we were debating something. But, since we it appears that we are, I apologize for implying anything personal. Perhaps if there is a misunderstanding on my part, could you please clarify as to exactly what it is that you are trying to assert/prove? Maybe what you and Genryu were discussing went over my head. I swore that you were asserting that when we get right down to it, we are thought. I was interjecting that we are not just thought. That in itself would be a subtle form of sakkaya-ditthi (self-identity view). The Suttas I quoted reflect the Buddha's rejection of this [as well other] forms of self view. If I am just posting non-sequiturs, however, I would definitley like to correct that.
Jason
kowtaaia,
Let me just take this example for now [until you can clarify what you are trying to state]. The mind is not just thought. The Buddha divides nama (mind) into four seperate khandhas (aggregates/heaps), not just one. The mind is a combination of sanna (perceptions), vedana (feelings), sankhara (mental formations) [which includes thought], and vinnana (consciousness). So, I do not see the statement "The mind is thought, for godsake!" to be completely accurate. I am sorry to disagree with you, but you are incorrect in saying this [from a Buddhist standpoint at least]. Also, the Buddha wasn't out to assert the reality of psychological phenomenon, or anything else for that matter. You are simply taking his teachings out of their original context. As the Buddha is well known for saying:
"Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress." - SN XXII.86
Jason
Jason, you're correct, there was no misunderstanding. The point I've been making is that taking one piece from a text out of context doesn't give an accurate view of the Buddha's teaching and that the Buddha taught clearly that we are more than our thoughts.
Kowtaaia, this actually proves the point. Quoting something out of context, without experential understanding, leads to making assumptions that are not part of the practice.
Genryu,
That is my position as well.
Jason
Simply sit and allow thoughts to pass.
Zenmonk is making deluded and ridiculous assertions. The fact is that we are not the unconditioned or Buddha mind or whatever you want to call it. "We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts."
You guys should answer the question put to 'federica' regarding the meditative state: "And this is all happening...where?"
Jason
"If we really continue this, we gain a kind of inner space, so that we are no longer thrown up and down by our thoughts and our emotions. We are able to see that we are not our thoughts and emotions. Our thoughts and emotions are mental states which rise and fall, but that is not us. We're able to connect more with that which knows. For this reason the Buddha emphasized that everyone should cultivate this quality of attention, of being present in the moment."
- Tenzin Palmo
Three Teachings - Talks by Tenzin Palmo
"Jon Kabat-Zinn reminds us that we are not our thoughts and says that it can be the most valuable insight we can get out of meditation training. I also understand that the Buddha stated that the mind is everything, that what we think we become. Could you share your understanding of these teachings and what appears to be a paradox?"
Response: The Dhammapada, a famous collection of discourses by the Buddha, opens with the words:
“We are what we think.
All that we are arises with mind.
With mind, we make the world.”
With this paragraph, the Buddha makes an important statement about the relationship between the mind, the world, and the self, or who we are.
Our connection, or contact with the world, is through the sense doors. When visual objects meet the eye, seeing arises. When sound vibrations strike the eardrum, hearing arises. When an odour touches the nose, smelling arises. Similarly, touch sensation, tasting and thinking arise from contacts with the inner and outer world. When careful attention is given to those occurrences, it can be seen how these processes arise as natural phenomena. Along with these bare processes, functions of mind which include consciousness, the awareness of the process; feeling, which is the experience of pleasant, unpleasant or neutral; and perception, which is the distinguishing of the sense object as being separate an distinct from other sense objects, also come into existence. As well, thoughts arise, influenced by past and present experiences, our conditioning, and give the objects names, descriptions, definitions and stories about them. When we look carefully, we can see that because of the limitations of our conditioning, a description, or picture of the world arises which is accurate from the perspective of our experience and conditioning, but is limited by it, and therefore incomplete. In this way, we create an image of the world.
At the same time, the way the mind perceives and interprets the world affects that very perception and interpretation, and affects how the perceiver – the self – is perceived. For example, if the conditioning and experience of the past and present cause a present object or event to be perceived as fearful, then a self which is afraid comes into being. In this way, both the world and who we are arise from mind.
What easily happens is that this mind gets identified as a thing with some substantiality and continuity, and gets identified as the self, the one who perceives, who smells, tastes, hears, cognises, thinks about, who is afraid, etc. But it can be seen that all these processes arise and pass as natural phenomena, based on contact, and that the sense of self arises and passes out of the conditions.
So this sense of self is dependent on the existence of other phenomena, and like them, is an image created out of past and present experiences and projections into the future. When it is clearly seen that thoughts appear out of conditions, as natural phenomena, they are known to not be self. One of the great values of this insight is that it can end the grasping and self-identification which gives rise to ownership of thoughts, emotions, etc., and the limited view of who or what “self” is. For example, a fearful thought is seen as just that, and not interpreted as who “I” am, a fearful person.
This is not a denial or negation of self or of the world, but rather a direct, experiential understanding of how self and world arise and pass, and of their nature. With this understanding can come a letting go, which is an end of grasping and aversion, and an end to the suffering which arises from them. It is peacefulness with things as they are.
It is important not to try and take this as a philosophy, or as a “truth”, and create an image of self or no-self from the concepts. Look closely at your own experience and perception of the world and your self, learn who you really are, and end suffering. This is the practice of mindfulness.
Interview with Norman Feldman
Keith
There is this difference between one who knows and one who practices. The one who knows may understand the words and concepts but the one who practices knows only one thing, namely, to become that truth. Words are an utilitarian means not only for communication, but also to solidify ideas. That's why words can never reveal the truth, only personal experience can. We attain our experiences through realizing what's happening within and why it is as it is. This means that we combine watchfulness with inquiry as to why we're thinking, saying and reacting the way we do. Unless we use our mind in this way, meditation will be an on-again, off-again affair and will remain difficult. When meditation doesn't bring joy, most people are quite happy to forget about it.
Without the meditative mind and experience, the Dhamma cannot arise in the heart, because the Dhamma is not in words. The Buddha was able to verbalize his inner experience for our benefit, to give us a guideline. That means we can find a direction, but we have to do the traveling ourselves.
There is a difference between calling a statement 'deluded and ridiculous' and calling a person 'deluded and ridiculous'. :winkc:
That we are thought is the closest and most obvious of all perceptions. "Deluded and ridiculous" refered to your statement that the unconditioned contains thought (or words to the effect). A citation was provided where the Buddha states that "The absense of thought is the state of the unconditioned." For some odd reason you feel that it's out of context, although it clearly contradicts your statement. Perhaps you could provide citation where the Buddha states that the unconditioned contains thought. You use the term 'experiential', but if thought (that's you) is there, then whatever the manifestation; you can be sure that it was not the unconditioned. The 'inner' is the reality of thought.
"Now attend and listen: The senses meet the object and from their contact sensation is born. Thence results recollection. Thus, as the sun's power through a burning-glass causes fire to appear, so through the cognizance born of sense and object, the mind originates and with it the ego, the thought of self, whom some Brahman teachers call the lord. The shoot springs from the seed; the seed is not the shoot; both are not one and the same, but successive phases in a continuous growth. Such is the birth of animated life."
BUDDHA: from the sermon at Rajagaya
Is such conceptual understanding really necessary? This thread sounds like an analytical philosophical debate - which is all very nice except i don't understand any of it.
All this philosophy requires a lot of thinking, and if thoughts are all we are, and a preferable state is an unconditioned state, haven't we just added more burden to our mind which we now have to try to shed? i.e. any analytical philosophical debate is conditioning which we then have to 'uncondition'?
please don't hurt me.
It sounds more like K..aa is more on a ego/power trip than anything....
sorry guys...had to say it.:eek2:
I kind of enjoy them. It is interesting to see fervent participation and learning. This might have been a subject that would have never been discussed before and the points being made are very educational.
We're not Enlightened (or at least I don't think we are) so a little emotion is okay. Isn't it?
-bf
We're being very gentle with each other. The barbs are too subtle for most to notice.
Debate has merit because ideas are sorted out and if you pay attention you will be forced to think and learn. This isn't mindless ego-tripping, it's sorting the wheat from the chaff. That's my opinion anyway and it is colored by the bias that rigorous thinking is considered as meritorious as deception is abhorrent.
Like the spurs on a cowboy's boots.... we might think they're a traditional and meaningful part of the outfit... but are they appropriate?
the idea is not to take every thought, dissect it and try to understand it..
'Over-analysis causes paralysis...'
The object - for me - is just to encourage the hubbub and chatter to die away, and just observe what comes up, but then to just let it glide across, flow through and leave....
With my personal practise, this is already becoming less frequent....
So, excuring me if Im totally off, but thought is a part of our relative, conditioned nature, the ego nature. However, deep inside us obscured by all these thoughts and conditionings is our buddhanature, the absolute, that is unconditioned. The path to liberation and awakening is to remove these conditionings, obscurations, and afflictions so as to realize and actualize that buddhanature that we already are.
Keith
Not quite. From the conceptual point of view, yes you're correct in some respects. But it's one sided and incomplete. From the experential point of view, it's exactly what we are and is beyond definition. It contains thought....