Dozens killed in Afghanistan because a "preacher" in Florida burned a Qur'an

Mountains

And people wonder why I grew disillusioned with organized religion?

vinlyn

Buddhism is organized, too.

mithril

Wow i completely forgot, i intended to read it. Brb^^

Lynx

No dogma in buddhism

Yacababy

We can't blame it on the religion. This man clearly or not so clearly, had deep seeded hate that he did not deal with. Perhaps he feels threatened. Who knows why is he the way he is or why he did it... But we can't generalize all religions similar to his as hateful or discriminatory. Am I saying I would shake the hands of the people who attend his church? No, I would probably avoid it because I most likely would want to say "something" the world is not perfect. I just feel awful for the people suffering from his actions over there... THATS what's really sad. Perhaps I didn't make much sense but i tried.
With love and inarticultion, Jen

compassionate_warrior

No dogma in buddhism

I keep seeing comments about "no dogma in Buddhism", but the testimony of people like Stephen Batchelor, who have devoted years to study in Buddhist monasteries (Mahayana), tells a different story. Many teachers in the Mahayana tradition require a belief in rebirth, for example (I've found this to be true in my own experience, as well. It's simply assumed that the teachings on karma and rebirth will not be questioned). That's a type of dogma.

Vajraheart

It's true that Buddhism tends to be a more open minded type of spiritual tradition simply based upon what the Buddha taught and the huge resource we have concerning his 40 years of teaching as compared to the spear heads of other traditions who taught in parables and for a very short period of time. But, individuals or groups of people in general have a tendency for one type of mental dogma or another, where we solidify a concept and push it as an absolute onto others without compassion. This tendency is apparent within any belief system that is choked with rigid intellectual, experiential or emotional faith. But, since these tendencies are generally an inherent aspect of self clinging, the Buddha does teach "not-self."

compassionate_warrior

This tendency is apparent within any belief system that is choked with rigid intellectual, experiential or emotional faith. But, since these tendencies are generally an inherent aspect of self clinging, the Buddha does teach "not-self."

Meaning the student is free to disregard the teachers' tendencies toward rigidity and go his/her own way? But sometimes when the student does that, s/he finds him/herself at odds with the tradition s/he has chosen.
(Thank you, Vajraheart, for the usual articulate response and explanation.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Is there a link to the article referenced in the OP?

mithril

"008.061 But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."
[http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/]

Alright, the Quran quite redundantly makes clear that Allah does not like people who do not believe in him. Still, the people killed were not at war with the people who killed them as far as i understand. Thus religion's got nothing to do with it as the above statement shows what they did was not in accord with it.

Vajraheart

This tendency is apparent within any belief system that is choked with rigid intellectual, experiential or emotional faith. But, since these tendencies are generally an inherent aspect of self clinging, the Buddha does teach "not-self."

Meaning the student is free to disregard the teachers' tendencies toward rigidity and go his/her own way? But sometimes when the student does that, s/he finds him/herself at odds with the tradition s/he has chosen.
(Thank you, Vajraheart, for the usual articulate response and explanation.)

I agree, but as the Buddha said, "Don't believe it..." (paraphrased) until it does coincide with ones own emotional, intellectual, and experiential level of person, while at the same time delving into these qualities of ones self through contemplation, as sometimes the teacher does know better than the student. It's a razor's edge, this spiritual tradition of deep self contemplation and sometimes we will be confused as to what we should believe, but this is why we have the teaching of inter-dependence and anatta. This is so that we can follow our own process with awareness and come to deeper places of experience in order to create a discerning opinion that's not blemished by public opinion or long held religious dogmas that might be outdated or unhelpful for the masses.

In the end, does our belief serve the greater good of all? Does it embellish compassion and make people aware of it in themselves or does it extinguish it? This is a constant inner debate that will lead one deeper and deeper past the layers of false self clinging and personal dogmas which don't necessarily have to be religious to be a dogma. We are all uptight, or knotted up in one way or another concerning one or another concept of ourself and life. It's just that people like this preacher in Florida and the people in Afghanistan who reacted are projecting these knots in their own heart onto their chosen faith and using it as an excuse to express their own personal ignorance that might not have anything to do with religion deep within their self clinging tendencies.

This is what makes Buddhism as a whole better, in my opinion, not as a dogma, but just as a deeply advanced universal psychology that is well explained from the very beginning by the Buddha himself.

I mean... we are all Buddhists for a reason, so we can feel safe saying that to each other... right? I wouldn't say that to a Christian or a Muslim though. I have... and it never does any good. People cling, unless they are enlightened, and in general, we are not that high up. Which is why in Buddhism we have the teaching of inter-dependence, which facilitates an awareness of inter-connectivity and natural compassion for apparent differences in other peoples psychology that we may not personally understand. Due to having some level of understanding of what the Buddha taught, I can experience compassion for people who act and think in ways that seem quite contrary to reality.

This is also why I'm a Buddhist. It's true, it does support a mind free from dogma, but what does dogma mean, deep within the layers of my own self clinging yet to be untied?

SherabDorje

@cwarrior: look at any major news publication online- msnbc, CNN, AOL, anything...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42401504/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

Vajraheart

"008.061 But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."
[http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/]

Alright, the Quran quite redundantly makes clear that Allah does not like people who do not believe in him. Still, the people killed were not at war with the people who killed them as far as i understand. Thus religion's got nothing to do with it as the above statement shows what they did was not in accord with it.

I agree, there are many instances in the Koran that do not support senseless slaughter. But, at the same time, supposedly Muhamed himself went out and slaughtered along with his band of warriors? Isn't that what history say's? I don't know, I wasn't there. But, I do know that in the Koran there are more instances where Jihad is mentioned in terms of the inner spiritual struggle between ego attachment and submission to the "good" will of Allah than there is mention of Jihad in terms of how it's being used by the Jihadists around the world.

mithril

But really, this is just so strange - i had to check few times if i wasn't actually reading the Bible, and i was just reading it for some 10 min; those books actually speak about the same people !
Its really the most unusual thing in the world that of all religions those two would be most regarded as speaking against each other, there are just so many similarities all around...

compassionate_warrior

The rioting seems to have much more to do with built-up resentment against US forces in Afghanistan, than with a US church burning a Koran. The latter just served as catalyst. If the US weren't harassing and killing civilians, this might not have happened. I don't see "clinging and ignorance" here, I see an occupied country tired of a foreign army acting with some degree of impunity.

Vajraheart

The rioting seems to have much more to do with built-up resentment against US forces in Afghanistan, than with a US church burning a Koran. The latter just served as catalyst. If the US weren't harassing and killing civilians, this might not have happened. I don't see "clinging and ignorance" here, I see an occupied country tired of a foreign army acting with some degree of impunity.

Yup!

Yacababy

The rioting seems to have much more to do with built-up resentment against US forces in Afghanistan, than with a US church burning a Koran. The latter just served as catalyst. If the US weren't harassing and killing civilians, this might not have happened. I don't see "clinging and ignorance" here, I see an occupied country tired of a foreign army acting with some degree of impunity.

Yup!

Double yup. The US can't seem to keep it's nose out.

SherabDorje

Both, IMO.

compassionate_warrior

Interesting that the Sufis manage to use the same Koran, but without all the drama....

vinlyn

No dogma in buddhism

Dogma is defined as, "established belief or doctrine held by a religion". Buddhism is full of dogma. The Noble Eightfold Path is just one example.

Barra

I heard that before the preacher could set fire to the Koran that a guy on a longboard swooped by and snatched it out of his hands? Anybody else heard that? Its a great image, even if it isn't true!

SherabDorje

First they "held a trial" of some sort. The Holy Quran had been soaked in kerosene in preparation. And the rest is what you see.

Barra, I don't "get" what you are referring to.

Spock

My medical Dr is a lovely Islamic lady. She wears a head scarf but she has a beautiful smile full of warmth and compassion.
I have known quite a few Muslims in my time and they are simply human with all the failings that comes with it.

One town that I regularly cycle through is divided though. Much of the town is full of 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation Pakistani's. They are generally poor. In other parts of the town it is full of disaffected white under educated people. Obesity, smoking and drinking is common. The people are poor. There is resentment between the seperate communities..... BNP membership is common, there is religious funmementalism...... there is poverty. There are lots of community spirited people too though but that is less reported.

Much of the western media is run by anti-islamic right-wing types who fuel division.

I dont know what im trying to say, other than that it is unhelpful to label ourselves too closely with our religious belief as it often leads to division.

compassionate_warrior

I still don't see the incident in question as being about religion, particularly, except for the catalyst. Think about Vietnam. People weren't happy to have Americans there, either.

Vajraheart

oops

Vajraheart

No dogma in buddhism

Dogma is defined as, "established belief or doctrine held by a religion". Buddhism is full of dogma. The Noble Eightfold Path is just one example.

Yes, but at the same time, the Buddha established that all these dogmas are empty of inherent existence and are just expedient means, so they are not written in stone, they are just applicable ointments for the pain of psychological suffering. If a person is not ready for the 8 fold noble path, they are useless, thus they have relative reality and not ultimate reality. They are dependently originated and are empty of inherent existence. So, that leads one to see that they are not really dogmas.

Daozen

The whole incident reeks of wrong views, hatred and anger.

War, fundamentalism, revenge.

Bad bad bad.

sndymorn

We can't blame it on the religion. This man clearly or not so clearly, had deep seeded hate that he did not deal with. Perhaps he feels threatened. Who knows why is he the way he is or why he did it... But we can't generalize all religions similar to his as hateful or discriminatory. Am I saying I would shake the hands of the people who attend his church? No, I would probably avoid it because I most likely would want to say "something" the world is not perfect. I just feel awful for the people suffering from his actions over there... THATS what's really sad. Perhaps I didn't make much sense but i tried.
With love and inarticultion, Jen

You have nothing to say of the kooks who would murder as retribution for burning a book?
One misguided idiot burns a book and , according to you , a slaughter occurred as retribution. All you can think to comment is that you feel bad for ' people suffering from his actions"? So the book burner caused the murders?

Come on friend...

Yacababy

Retribution? What are you speaking of. All I said was that his actions have nothing to do with the religion that he is a part of. Not all Christians go around hating and burning books.

I am not requires to meet your comment requirements. I dont recall calling HIM a murderer. Perhaps it had direct correlation perhaps not. I was replying o the OP based on what they posted. I chose not to delve into it further because personally the news is not always reliable and watching it and feeling awful serves no purpose. I could DO something to help i would. But sitting on my couch, with a general distaste for my country won't help anyone.

With love, Jen

Yacababy

I speak much more politely in front of a general audience than I normally do if you want to know what I really think than message me and I will let you know I know that sounds awfully ominous but assure it's not

sndymorn

And people wonder why I grew disillusioned with organized religion?

I think topic should have read "Dozens killed in Afghanistan "because" a preacher in Florida burned a Qur'an"

compassionate_warrior

Funny, when the US kills dozens in Afghanistan, it doesn't make headlines. :shake:

Malachy12

My gf, who is very rebellious against any kind of religion thinks that all evil originates because of organized religion. She is always pointing to bloody histories to prove her point, and is very attached to Richard Dawkins.
However, organized religion also brings a lot of good. Maybe it's not organized religion, it's just too much attachment to one's opinions. Like when PETA gets out of control, because they are so attached to their perspectives, or when political people get into fiery mudslinging because of strong attachments to their opinions.
Any time anyone starts to think they "are what they think", and what they think is "ultimate truth" you will find people willing to aggressively defend themselves/their beliefs. Some are even willing to die for what they believe to be "ultimate truth". When we are convinced that we are right we become susceptible to ignorance. We risk shutting off our listening ears. This happens even outside of religious arenas.

B5C

Hey were Buddhists. Do we get offended with this?

Cinorjer

An interesting range of answers. I think the conflict is that we have two separate issues going on.

First, after reading the preacher's own words, it's obvious to me he's a loudmouthed idiot without a clue. Everyone knows one, at the workplace or especially hanging out in bars. Usually bigots or racists although keeps telling you "I'm not a..." Has the answers to what's wrong with the world and doesn't have the intelligence or education to understand his answers will only kill people and make it worse. Maybe even proud of his ignorance. So this one gathered a small group of intolerant like minded people together and called it a church. The world is full of people like this. Morons with a microphone. Heck, we've even elected some of them to congress.

But in our country, under our remaining freedoms that the political idiots have yet to strip from us, people have the right to exercise their idiotness. He has the right to be stupid. It is not his fault that the UN workers were killed. That is the fault of the people who did the killing. Just stop and think for a moment about what it takes to get someone to murder.

People don't kill because someone they never heard of before burns a book halfway around the world. A million Muslims in America know the difference between right and wrong, and didn't run out and kill the first preacher they could find. The UN workers were killed because a group of people over there are filled with hatred and anger and looking for an excuse to lash out. It really didn't have anything to do with a burnt Koran.

But the preacher is still a loudmouth idiot. He thinks America should just declare war on Islam, round up and blow away the heathens, according to his words. He feels bad about the innocent UN bystanders that got killed, but says it's not his responsibility. And he says that without a clue as to how ironic that makes it, when he tries to say the problem is the religious extremists in the world "over there". But this is America. Where even the loudmouth idiots have rights.