Reincarnation... Again, but about Buddhas.

MindGate

So, for those of you who believe in reincarnation:

Why do Buddhas cease to become reborn? From what I've read, many people believe that consciousness/energy/life forces are the things that get reincarnated for... whatever reason. Becoming enlightened is seeing the world as it really is - so why would that stop rebirth?

Dakini

I'm not sure they all do. They have a choice, to return in order to help humanity, or...not. But it's a good question: if it's true what some say, that it's consciousness (or whatever) that gets reborn, what happens to that consciousness when someone ends the cycle of rebirth? The logic doesn't fit. :crazy:
Rebirth for ordinary mortals is for the purpose of reaching enlightenment, or learning life lessons until there's nothing to learn anymore. So once you reach the goal, there's no reason to be reborn (unless you choose to), so the mechanism stops, so to speak. There are no more conditions giving rise to a rebirth.
...I think. :-/
Good thread.

MindGate

I, personally, would want to become a bodhisattva. Just saying.

Ric

From what I understand once you are enlightened you dont create karma, so its like the system blows up because you need to move either up or down. Then the Mahayana tradition added the idea that if you wanted you can choose to come back to help others.

MindGate

From what I understand once you are enlightened you dont create karma, so its like the system blows up because you need to move either up or down. Then the Mahayana tradition added the idea that if you wanted you can choose to come back to help others.

But wouldn't a Buddha gain good karma for being such a nice guy?

Brandon

From my beliefs Tathagata who choses to be reborn becomes a bodhisattva in his next life.

Brandon

no the dhamaphada states a buddha does neither good nor evil therefor creating no karmic value. A Buddha's cycle is broken.

Dakini

Thanks for that explanation, Brandon. There's no karmic value in a buddha's actions? All that teaching, and working to bring people closer to enlightenment doesn't have karmic value? Well, if the dhamaphada says so, it must be right. :-/ Go figure.

MindGate

The Buddha doesn't do good? :-/

Brandon

All the text I have read only shows that buddha states something and you must figure it out yourself. Thus when he taught the truth of everything he merely lifted a flower. As everyone sat there clueless a single monk shrouded in laughter for he realized what lied beneath buddhas message. Where is the karmic value in that?

Brandon

i had also never implied that whatever the dhamaphada says is true. You were ignorant to assume this. I just stated that this is what the dhamaphada had stated.

MindGate

i had also never implied that whatever the dhamaphada says is true. You were ignorant to assume this. I just stated that this is what the dhamaphada had stated.

The Bible says you are going to Hell. So does the Quran.

Brandon

And how does this pertain to the reincarnation of buddhas?

MindGate

Well, I asked why would Buddha stop having rebirth.

You responded by quoting a Buddhist scripture.

I responded by asking how that made sense.

You responded by calling me ignorant and telling me I should not have assumed you meant your response to be true.

So... stating something you don't think to be true seems a bit irrelevant, don't you think? Its just a pointless quote if you don't believe it, understand it, or consider it to be true. So, I stating other scriptures that claim what happens to you in the afterlife. I don't believe it, its a bit irrelevant, so why did I post it? I don't know... why did you post something from the dhammapada if you consider it to be untrue?

Brandon

i merely gave you a recourse for your original post. whether or not I believe it does not matter. I dont gain anything for convincing you in my beleifs. i was just contributing to your question. and unless you are dakini as well I never called you ignorant. I meant for that to be towards him.

compassionate_warrior

haha! You guys are funny! We're so conditioned to taking suttric quotes as the final word, and the Dhamaphada is said to be the words of the Buddha so...we assumed the scripture was authoritative.Thanks for correcting our error. I think MG has a point--why quote a scripture if you think the words may not be true? or from now on should we ignore suttric quotes?

All the text I have read only shows that buddha states something and you must figure it out yourself. Thus when he taught the truth of everything he merely lifted a flower. As everyone sat there clueless a single monk shrouded in laughter for he realized what lied beneath buddhas message. Where is the karmic value in that?

This is not all the Buddha did, though. In some suttras he explains matters in detail. His teaching career wasn't all guessing games.

Oh, and thanks for clarifying whom it was you were calling ignorant. That makes everything ok. (You're not DD in disguise, are you? )

Brandon

i also never stated that I didn't believe what the dhamahpada reads. Me believing in something is 1 thing. but me telling someone that it is true is another.

MindGate

Could you please tell me which line the dhammapada said this is on?

aMatt

If a sutta isn't true, reject it.

Buddha's actions cause no accumulation in the mind, so there is no force to cause a rebirth.

This tends to be a hot topic, many varying opinions.

compassionate_warrior

Buddha's actions cause no accumulation in the mind, so there is no force to cause a rebirth.

This makes sense, aMatt. It causes no accumulation in the mind, because the Buddha isn't attached to his good works.

This tends to be a hot topic, many varying opinions.

Thanks for the warning.

Brandon

hmmmm in bad mood today are we fellas?

Linc

You were ignorant to assume this.

Don't be a jerk.

hermitwin

Why? Why does the sun die?
I believe there is a beginning and an end.
From this forum I have gained more respect for Tibetan buddhism
because it has benefitted many people.
But everyone agrees that Buddha did not teach the Boddhisatta ideal.

Some schools are way off. like the pure land which guarantees
good rebirth if you chant Amitabha(Buddha never mentioned this).
It is very similar to christianity where you just have to
accept jesus as your saviour.

taiyaki

death is just the next experience. have fun!

fivebells

So, for those of you who believe in reincarnation:

Why do Buddhas cease to become reborn? From what I've read, many people believe that consciousness/energy/life forces are the things that get reincarnated for... whatever reason. Becoming enlightened is seeing the world as it really is - so why would that stop rebirth?

It's worth noting that this conundrum doesn't come in the this-life interpretation of dependent origination.

It's also worth noting that the Buddha considered the question of what happens to the Tathagatha after death to be irrelevant to his teachings, basically an imponderable.

Talisman

In reference to OP, in my understanding the Buddha has a choice to return or not. Before attaining parinirvana, the Buddha beseaches Ananda, informing him that if he wishes he will remain in samsara until the end of the current Kalpa, but Ananda does not respond and the Buddha dies.

Rebirth is a chain in pratityasamutpada which is preceded earlier in the chain by volition. Choice is volition is karma. The Buddha can still create karma and volition by means of choice but only does so skillfuly and with purpose.

There is also the Lotus Sutra which declares that the Buddha attained enlightenment many lifetimes ago and was already enlightened when born into this world. And that he continues to be reborn in other world systems eternally propogating the spread of Dharma. I'm not so sure about all this, but it's not my place to judge.

I am under the belief that the Buddha acheived parinirvana upon the break up of the aggregates and is now beyond all comprehension. To know where the "thus come one" has gone we must follow in his stead. Luckily, he has left a path for us to walk upon.

compassionate_warrior

Could you please tell me which line the dhammapada said this is on?

Go onto the "Interesting Suttra Quote" thread. Dazzle put up a link to the entire dhammapada. Maybe you'll find what you're looking for.

In reference to OP, in my understanding the Buddha has a choice to return or not. Before attaining parinirvana, the Buddha beseaches Ananda, informing him that if he wishes he will remain in samsara until the end of the current Kalpa, but Ananda does not respond and the Buddha dies.

Rebirth is a chain in pratityasamutpada which is preceded earlier in the chain by volition. Choice is volition is karma. The Buddha can still create karma and volition by means of choice but only does so skillfuly and with purpose.

This is my understanding. Nice post, Tal.

Arjquad

I heard a podcast from urban dharma that explained something similar. The Buddha is born when all knowledge of Buddhism before that is lost and forgotten. The next Buddha will be reborn once all knowledge of Buddhism is forgotten from the world.

hermitwin

'Buddha has a choice to return or not. Before attaining parinirvana, the Buddha beseaches Ananda, informing him that if he wishes he will remain in samsara until the end of the current Kalpa, but Ananda does not respond'

I dont think this is correct. Ananda was sad that Buddha was dying.
Buddha said, cant you see my old body is failing, death is
the natural way.

'A little while later it was noticed that Venerable Ananda was nowhere to be seen. He had gone inside a hut and stood leaning against the door bar, weeping. He thought: "Alas! I remain still but a learner, one who has yet to work out his own perfection. And the Master is about to pass away from me — he who is so kind!"

And the Buddha, sending for Ananda, said to him, "Enough now, Ananda! Do not sorrow and cry. Have I not already repeatedly told you that there is separation and parting from all that is dear and beloved? How is it possible that anything that has been born, has had a beginning, should not again die? Such a thing is not possible.

"Ananda, you have served me with your acts of loving-kindness, helpfully, gladly, sincerely, and so too in your words and your thoughts. You have gained merit, Ananda. Keep on trying and you will soon be free of all your human weaknesses. In a very short time you too will become an arahant.

"Now you can go, Ananda. But go into Kusinaga and tell all the people that tonight, in the last watch of the night, the Buddha will pass away into nirvana. Come and see the Buddha before he passes away."