Stealing vs Finding

person

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and this is my first new discussion so thanks in advance for your responses.

So while out for some walks a while back I had two similar but different situations of finding something laying around and it got me to thinking about the line between finding something laying around and stealing it.

The first one I was walking down the sidewalk of a busy street and saw some money on the ground, I picked it up and found that it was $50! My first thought was "sweet $50, my lucky day/ what good karma". Then I thought that someone dropped it and will be upset when they find it missing so I looked up and down the street and didn't see anyone so I pocketed the money and didn't much think about it after that.

A few weeks later I was walking in the neighborhood and came across a ping-pong ball in the gutter. I thought, "My cat would have some fun playing with that", so I put it in my pocket and went on my way. After thinking about it for a bit though, in the yard across the street there were lots of kids toys and other balls so it almost certainly came from there and the ball stood out in the gutter so there was a good chance they would see it and be able to get it back. So I thought that this seemed like stealing even though it was a rather insignificant item and I decided to put it back on my way home.

First, my question is do people agree/disagree with this thought. Secondly that got me thinking about a couple hypothetical tangents from the first example and when does finding something become stealing.

Suppose the money had been in a wallet with a drivers license. In this case it would be fairly easy to return the money to the rightful owner and would seem to me to be stealing.

Now suppose the money had been in a distinctive sort of wallet with a pictere of someone you didn't know and no ID. Returning it wouldn't be as simple as showing up to the address but an ad or some kind of posting could be made and any claims to ownership could be easily verified, as opposed to just asking if someone lost $50. So would it be stealing in this case if you kept the money without making an honest effort to find the owner.

Any thoughts anyone has would be welcome and especially any teaching or scriptural reference any one know of would be much appreciated.

vinlyn

I guess for me, in hypothetical situations, it comes down to what's reasonable.

If I found a wallet and there was identification in it, I'd return the wallet. If no identification, I'd make a reasonable effort -- perhaps put an ad on Craigslist or some such action. But, if I just found the $50 laying on the sidewalk...it's just mine then.

I think it gets more difficult when you get in the dilemma when a cashier or clerk makes a mistake in my favor. If it's an honest mistake, I'll correct them. But if they're being careless and inattentive and not doing their job, then personally, I don't feel it's my job to do their job for them.

For example, years ago I was buying some cookware at a national department store. It was around the holidays and there was lots of temporary help. The two girls in the housewares department were clearly young college girls, not paying attention to their work, socializing and laughing with each other, instead of paying attention to their work and the many customers standing in line waiting to be checked out. The cookware I was buying was on sale -- 50% off. The silly girls were socializing and took 50% of the 50% off price. Not an honest error. An error of not being mindful. I accepted their price.

Was I being totally honest. No. But it's not my job to do their job. They told me the price. I accepted the price.

I know many people will disagree with me. But, I accept the karmic results of my action.

Sabre

Hi person!

The actual difference between stealing and finding is more a thing defined by law I would say. But for us Buddhists the precept is to not take things not given, so both are against the precept. Not to blame you or anything! , but since you ask on a Buddhist board, this is my response

$50.. good karma! You might consider donating it to charity to get double good karma out of it

With metta,
Sabre

compassionate_warrior

Vinlyn, that's a very interesting situation you present, the department store temp. help. Although I lean towards agreeing with you, I can't help but wonder if that reasoning is only a justification for taking advantage of the girls' error. Yes, they should've been paying attention, and when their error is discovered, they'll have to make up the difference from their own pockets or from their paycheck, thereby learning a lesson about taking employment seriously and behaving mindfully and maturely, a good lesson. Still, there is the question of: being aware of their mistake, was it dishonest of you to not mention it? Possibly the best course of action would have been to tell the girls about the error, then go to the manager and report the carelessness that could have cost the store some money, not to mention the poor service the girls were providing during a busy shopping time. It could be that the girls were making that same error all day. But I think any customer is probably unlikely to bother to contact a manager.

I wonder what other members think. Very interesting dilemma.

Zayl

Well if it is clear that it belongs to someone else then I don't take it. If it is not exactly clear who it belongs to, I'll make a concerted effort to find the owner before keeping it. If there is no way in hell to tell who it came from, its mine.

I've come a long way though, when I was little I had almost no concept of personal property.

person

Hi person!

The actual difference between stealing and finding is more a thing defined by law I would say. But for us Buddhists the precept is to not take things not given, so both are against the precept. Not to blame you or anything! , but since you ask on a Buddhist board, this is my response

$50.. good karma! You might consider donating it to charity to get double good karma out of it

With metta,
Sabre

Thanks Sabre this was helpful. The Dalai Lama is coming to town soon, using the money to buy a ticket to attend his teaching I think would be a good use for it.

Dakini

I've come a long way though, when I was little I had almost no concept of personal property.

Kids are unable to understand the concept of personal property until the age of 3, when their brains are sufficiently developed to understand this idea. This is the age at which parents usually teach their kids the difference between "mine" and "not mine". I've found this to be true across cultures around the world. It's important at that age not so much from a moral standpoint (morality is still a little beyond most 3-year-olds), but simply to keep the child safe, as little kids tend to explore and can get into things that can be harmful. Medicines that look like candy, for example. Zayl, you were just being a typical kid, not responsible for violating rules you had no clue about.

Zayl

Yeah but this kept up until I was over the age of six, lol.

compassionate_warrior

Yeah but this kept up until I was over the age of six, lol.

Is this your fault, or your parents', for not teaching you? A kid wouldn't know unless he was told.

Zayl

Not too sure, the subject was never really broached until a teacher taught me. Even then I had trouble with it for a few years after.