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What Did the Buddha Mean: Ordaining Nuns Will Shorten the Duration of the Dharma?
...in a male-dominated world, it only stands to reason that men have an advantage. It doesn't mean women can't do what they want, only that they face extra challenges. This has been my observation and my experience.
Such worldly advantages are actually disadvantages when it comes to pursuing enlightenment, though.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
People used to claim scientists are full of "bullcrap". The human habit of dismissing what they don't understand...
If people cannot see that males still hold more advantage in the world than women then they are deluding themselves.
No wonder Buddha speaks what is true, because it is what it is. By saying it's bull crap one denies that humans discriminates and differentiates things around us.
One: this isn't the issue, your post is off topic and a potential threadjack. . Two: My comment about utter bullcrap referred specifically to this comment:
In Buddhism, being born a woman means that you dont have sufficient good karma to be borned a man.
(1) it can lead to discrimination, non-caring & inaction, contrary to other teachings of the Buddha about karma; and
(2) it does not exist in the Chinese version of the Majjhima Nikaya, which for the most part is identical to the Indian version. so many say the Buddha did not speak this karma sutta; that it is a later addition
HOWEVER, in this sutta, the Buddha does not distinguish being born as a "man" or "woman" is a result of karma
the Buddha only distinguishes qualities such as "wealth & poverty", "beauty & ugliness", "health & sickness", "short lived & long lived", "influential & uninfluential", etc.
in this sutta, the Buddha applies these distinctions equally to men & women
of course, I will personaly always assert these results of karma are merely psychological
for example, as the Buddha said, a man or women is "reborn" ugly due to anger. this is true. even the most beautiful woman is of ugly appearance when she is angry
or a stingy man or women lives in mental poverty (even though they may be financially rich)
Individuals, irrespective of gender have individual cirumstances - especially those who experience mental illness ( such as Bipolar Disorder, as it is reported in the media that Britney lives with, these photograhs are also sourced from the media I strongly suspect )
People used to claim scientists are full of "bullcrap". The human habit of dismissing what they don't understand...
If people cannot see that males still hold more advantage in the world than women then they are deluding themselves.
No wonder Buddha speaks what is true, because it is what it is. By saying it's bull crap one denies that humans discriminates and differentiates things around us.
For these reasons:
The question is whether Buddha was incorrect that the woman would hasten the sanghas decline.
The question of whether being a woman is less good karma is irrelevant because whether the woman reach enlightenment faster doesn't connect to the sangha decays faster. Unless you substantiate that less enlightened members decays the sangha. Would that be true. I think that must be stated and argued to make it relevant.
I do think inflammatory pictures are innapropriate as always. However DDs pictures were a dramatic way to illustrate a point and not used to inflame.
...in a male-dominated world, it only stands to reason that men have an advantage. It doesn't mean women can't do what they want, only that they face extra challenges. This has been my observation and my experience.
Such worldly advantages are actually disadvantages when it comes to pursuing enlightenment, though.
haha! Right you are, fivebells! Thanks for that. ^_^
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited April 2011
What is wrong with that comment? You don't believe in Karma?
Yes, of course I believe in Kamma. Kamma is volitional action. As such, given that we all think/say/do things as a willing free choice, then kamma is what that willing free choice manifests as.
However, I am of the opinion that the comment -
"In Buddhism, being born a woman means that you dont have sufficient good karma to be borned a man."
- is misinformed and ignorant rubbish.
Given the obvious mis-use of the word karma, it appears that hermitwin is obviously confused as to what karma means, for a start.....
And to imply that being born a woman is a lower birth for a human being - and as such a judged, measured and evaluated re-birth - is extremely ignorant.
Had it not been for a woman, the Buddha wouldn't even have been born.
Pretty good result, being the Buddha's mother....!
Attachment to being a woman for one. Volition is linked to attachment? I don't claim to understand Karma. It could be a deliberate choice if there was control of that. Tara I think you quoted had that. I believe I read somewhere someone say he thought more monks would choose (even through compassion and not skill) to be women in response for the need for women teachers. My teachers sangha is largely women I think that is no coincidence as my teacher is a woman. There are also some weird things in scripture such as lying causing bad breath. Do I believe that? No, but I don't entirely disbelieve when a lot of the text makes good sense and is helpful.
I don't agree that it is harder for a woman to reach enlightenment intrinsically, but you could conceive of a societal relations where that is possible. If they were not allowed to speak or study for example. Read.
I agree with Jeffrey, in that this is what Mahayana teaches. Our rebirth can be determined by attachments from the previous life, for example, if one is attached to a certain place, he/she might be attracted while in the bardo state, to be reborn in the same place. This teaching may not be part of other traditions. But what hermitwin and NotaGangsta mean, obviously, is that the fruit of one's karma can result in a male or female or animal rebirth. This is also Mahayana teaching. Whether or not one chooses to buy into this is another matter, and it also doesn't mean that women can't reach Enlightenment, that's also a different matter.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Theravada doesn't buy into that I believe, and I think it's a dangerous and alienating concept, in my view. I do firmly believe enlightenment transcends gender.....
I do firmly believe enlightenment transcends gender.....
I agree wholeheartedly (who could disagree? OK, aside from some misguided monks...), and there have been Tibetan women accomplished in the dharma who have said that actually, a female rebirth is the best for gaining Enlightenment. (In spite of the supposedly inferior "karmic" load.)
Theravada doesn't buy into that I believe, and I think it's a dangerous and alienating concept, in my view. I do firmly believe enlightenment transcends gender.....
Absolutely. How could it possibly have anything to do with gender ! ....and from Buddhanet's study section there's the quote I gave on page 2 of this thread.
"The Buddha unhesitatingly accepted that women are capable of realizing the Truth, just as men are".
I should perhaps apologise to fed for causing offence to her. Sorry fed. But the offending sentence comes from the prevailing view in traditional Buddhist countries. I do not think men are superior to women in any way. However, I do believe that our gender is determined by our karma.
More women (and people) have leisure to study. In many times woman would have more chores and childrearing. Of course now they also have careers, but they also have more books and the internet, and they had a hell of a lot of chores and MANY kids previously.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I should perhaps apologise to fed for causing offence to her. Sorry fed. But the offending sentence comes from the prevailing view in traditional Buddhist countries. I do not think men are superior to women in any way. However, I do believe that our gender is determined by our karma.
I forgive you my child, now go, and sin no more....... :om:
(I thought that was appropriate, given it's Easter... getting into the swing of things..... )
Many things are determined by our kamma.... but speculation on gender - as well as anything else - is probably a fruitless route. I'll tell you, quite honestly: I feel privileged to have been born as I was. I've had a relatively cushy time in my life: I really cannot complain. And being a woman as far as I'm concerned, has been a distinctly significant proportion of that blessing.
"The Buddha unhesitatingly accepted that women are capable of realizing the Truth, just as men are".
Exactly, Female practitioners doesn't have to leave home and can just stay as lay followers. It's ordaining them thats the issue.
Now that the world has changed, most of the obstacles that prevents females from ordaining have dissappeared. More argument over the original quotes and Karmic natural are pointless. Honestly, ask any female Monastics they will tell you why they totally agree with the Buddha's message.
People are only offended and start calling things sexist because their own discriminating minds.
In Buddhist communities, male dominance is alive and kicking.
Ajahn Brahm apparently got in trouble with the people of the Thai Forest organization for giving woman “full ordination”. At least in that tradition, equal rights for woman are problematic. But also in other Buddhist groups men are dominantly present in the top positions. Just like in the rest of society.
Hence they are the "small vehicle". However, I think people focuses on what is sexist/unfair instead of organisations that are equal and democratice. Why don't we all look at the Sanghas and school that are gender equal?
If the Buddha really said the ordination of women would shorten the lifespan of the Dharma (meaning what he really taught), it could be feasible that he foresaw schism based on sexism between male monastic organizations and female monastic organizations that would be as a poison arrow. This arrow would be fired from one sex toward the other, but would poison the teachings as well that its effect would remain and continue to burn.
I.e. placing restrictions or exclusions, and then the Dharma being modified just-so so that such things are really seen as "okay", as well as strengthening traditional "choices" over the true intent of the teachings. I don't know. Just a thought that seems in-line; when perspectives and choices can be made that are completely contrary to reality, have no basis in reality, and yet still be the "true" way in accordance with the Buddha's teachings and intentions... there must be some "fudging" of the truth. Things no longer add up!
"The Buddha unhesitatingly accepted that women are capable of realizing the Truth, just as men are".
Exactly, Female practitioners doesn't have to leave home and can just stay as lay followers. It's ordaining them thats the issue.
Now that the world has changed, most of the obstacles that prevents females from ordaining have dissappeared. More argument over the original quotes and Karmic natural are pointless. Honestly, ask any female Monastics they will tell you why they totally agree with the Buddha's message.
People are only offended and start calling things sexist because their own discriminating minds.
Who cares what they do in Thailand?! There are Mahayana organisation that doesn't discriminate women. Isn't it better to support the opened instead attacking the narrow minded?
Jeez, one of the big Mahayana organisation allowed Theravada nuns to be ordained to proper status, thus by passing Theravada discrimination.
The Dharma is always the Dharma. It is reality, it is the true state of things, it is inescapable. Don't be limited to thinking there's a "Dharma age" that means it's tough to see the Dharma, or that we won't be able to see it later. There's only now now, and if you truly want to know the truth and put in the effort, you will! When the teachings fade, the Dharma will still be the Dharma, and it will be found again.
If the Buddha really said the ordination of women would shorten the lifespan of the Dharma
Interesting theory, cloud, but I think we arrived at the conclusion that the passage in question was a later addition, not the Buddha's words. That settles it nicely.
Yeah I thought the "if" was necessary. We assume what is written was actually spoken in the same way a Christian assumes what it says in the Bible that Jesus said. Hard to know for sure. Even more difficult given that there are actual motives to change the words. So we start with "if he said this, then"...
Comments
Two: My comment about utter bullcrap referred specifically to this comment:
your view is not really supported by the teachings of the Buddha
for example, in the suttas, there is a controversial sutta about karma in the Majjhima Nikaya
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.nymo.html
the sutta is controversial because:
(1) it can lead to discrimination, non-caring & inaction, contrary to other teachings of the Buddha about karma; and
(2) it does not exist in the Chinese version of the Majjhima Nikaya, which for the most part is identical to the Indian version. so many say the Buddha did not speak this karma sutta; that it is a later addition
HOWEVER, in this sutta, the Buddha does not distinguish being born as a "man" or "woman" is a result of karma
the Buddha only distinguishes qualities such as "wealth & poverty", "beauty & ugliness", "health & sickness", "short lived & long lived", "influential & uninfluential", etc.
in this sutta, the Buddha applies these distinctions equally to men & women
of course, I will personaly always assert these results of karma are merely psychological
for example, as the Buddha said, a man or women is "reborn" ugly due to anger. this is true. even the most beautiful woman is of ugly appearance when she is angry
or a stingy man or women lives in mental poverty (even though they may be financially rich)
kind regards
Thus their photograhs are widely available because being photographed is their livelihood
The purpose of displaying the photograhs is to show how anger leads to ugliness, as the Buddha (speculatively) taught
Be happy
.
People used to claim scientists are full of "bullcrap". The human habit of dismissing what they don't understand...
If people cannot see that males still hold more advantage in the world than women then they are deluding themselves.
No wonder Buddha speaks what is true, because it is what it is. By saying it's bull crap one denies that humans discriminates and differentiates things around us.
For these reasons:
The question is whether Buddha was incorrect that the woman would hasten the sanghas decline.
The question of whether being a woman is less good karma is irrelevant because whether the woman reach enlightenment faster doesn't connect to the sangha decays faster. Unless you substantiate that less enlightened members decays the sangha. Would that be true. I think that must be stated and argued to make it relevant.
I do think inflammatory pictures are innapropriate as always. However DDs pictures were a dramatic way to illustrate a point and not used to inflame.
Kamma is volitional action. As such, given that we all think/say/do things as a willing free choice, then kamma is what that willing free choice manifests as.
However, I am of the opinion that the comment -
"In Buddhism, being born a woman means that you dont have sufficient good karma to be borned a man."
- is misinformed and ignorant rubbish.
Given the obvious mis-use of the word karma, it appears that hermitwin is obviously confused as to what karma means, for a start.....
And to imply that being born a woman is a lower birth for a human being - and as such a judged, measured and evaluated re-birth - is extremely ignorant.
Had it not been for a woman, the Buddha wouldn't even have been born.
Pretty good result, being the Buddha's mother....!
you mean a deliberate choice to be born as a woman....?
Thanks....
I don't agree that it is harder for a woman to reach enlightenment intrinsically, but you could conceive of a societal relations where that is possible. If they were not allowed to speak or study for example. Read.
I do firmly believe enlightenment transcends gender.....
"The Buddha unhesitatingly accepted that women are capable of realizing the Truth, just as men are".
.
to her. Sorry fed.
But the offending sentence comes from the prevailing view
in traditional Buddhist countries.
I do not think men are superior to women in any way.
However, I do believe that our gender is determined
by our karma.
(I thought that was appropriate, given it's Easter... getting into the swing of things.....
Many things are determined by our kamma.... but speculation on gender - as well as anything else - is probably a fruitless route.
I'll tell you, quite honestly:
I feel privileged to have been born as I was. I've had a relatively cushy time in my life: I really cannot complain. And being a woman as far as I'm concerned, has been a distinctly significant proportion of that blessing.
Now that the world has changed, most of the obstacles that prevents females from ordaining have dissappeared. More argument over the original quotes and Karmic natural are pointless. Honestly, ask any female Monastics they will tell you why they totally agree with the Buddha's message.
People are only offended and start calling things sexist because their own discriminating minds.
Ajahn Brahm apparently got in trouble with the people of the Thai Forest organization for giving woman “full ordination”. At least in that tradition, equal rights for woman are problematic.
But also in other Buddhist groups men are dominantly present in the top positions. Just like in the rest of society.
I.e. placing restrictions or exclusions, and then the Dharma being modified just-so so that such things are really seen as "okay", as well as strengthening traditional "choices" over the true intent of the teachings. I don't know. Just a thought that seems in-line; when perspectives and choices can be made that are completely contrary to reality, have no basis in reality, and yet still be the "true" way in accordance with the Buddha's teachings and intentions... there must be some "fudging" of the truth. Things no longer add up!
Jeez, one of the big Mahayana organisation allowed Theravada nuns to be ordained to proper status, thus by passing Theravada discrimination.
We are wayyy past the true Dharma age now anyway!