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Suicide Bombings in Iraq

edited January 2006 in Faith & Religion
I just heard yesterday that there are, on average, 75 suicidue bombings each day in Baghdad. I knew there were a lot, but I had no idea the number was that high. What I don't understand is what exactly these suicide bombers are trying to achieve. Are they just trying to rid their country of people that have a different religion than them? I don't understand what their goal is.

Anyone know?

Comments

  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Suicide bombings have different mindsets to them - I would think.

    If one is militant Islamic (which is a faction and has nothing to do with true Islam - at least that's what many Islamic leaders teach regarding the peacefulness of Islam) giving your life in this manner ensures that you will go to heaven, live by rivers flowing with wine and honey while being attended to by 72 virgins for your own personal use.

    Many of the people doing these bombings (but not all) are young and impressionable being led to do things by other that are too weak and afraid to lay down their life in this same manner.

    Truly a shame.

    -bf
  • edited January 2006
    That doesn't make any sense.....you can get yourself to heaven by killing a bunch of other people???!!!?? So just by killing ANYONE, this is suppsoed to get you into heaven? Or is it by killing people of a different religion?
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Ahhh... but in the Bible there were many characters that were ordered by God to kill all sorts of people. When the Israelites came to Canaan - they were to kill the people there and inhabit the land.

    In the Catholic church, a priest can pray over a piece of bread and it magically turns into the body of Christ?

    There are all sorts of things that can be taken from various "holy" scriptures and, given the right mindset, pressure, isolation, and ignorance - that people will take up and do no matter how ridiculous it is.

    People that are doing this are probably in the mindset that this is a holy war, they are ridding the land of evil doers, killing people that have invaded a land given to them by Allah - they're doing their Lord's work.

    -bf
  • edited January 2006
    buddhafoot wrote:
    People that are doing this are probably in the mindset that this is a holy war, they are ridding the land of evil doers, killing people that have invaded a land given to them by Allah - they're doing their Lord's work.

    -bf

    Not just evil doers and invaders.. They also kill other muslims in Iraq (they actually kill more of them than the "invaders") and they kill all across the globe as well... Thailand, Great Britain, the US, Italy, the Philippines, Indonesia and many more... Iran's leader has called for the extermination of Israel and the "evil" west.

    What they want to achieve is clear, they want to make Islamic law the law of the world - Their justification, their Koran.
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Hunt4life wrote:
    Not just evil doers and invaders.. They also kill other muslims in Iraq (they actually kill more of them than the "invaders") and they kill all across the globe as well... Thailand, Great Britain, the US, Italy, the Philippines, Indonesia and many more... Iran's leader has called for the extermination of Israel and the "evil" west.

    What they want to achieve is clear, they want to make Islamic law the law of the world - Their justification, their Koran.

    I believe the Koran teaches love and peace just like many other holy books. I actually, think it's the bent interpretation of some people that get "indiscriminate killing of other" is okay.

    -bf
  • edited January 2006
    buddhafoot wrote:
    I believe the Koran teaches love and peace just like many other holy books. I actually, think it's the bent interpretation of some people that get "indiscriminate killing of other" is okay.

    -bf

    I have heard it called "the Religion of peace" and read where HHDL said that love and kindness is at the heart of all major religions and if that is the path taken by their practioners, is a good thing.

    And, I have heard some twist or interpret some if the teachings in evil ways. I don't know enough about the Koran to know what its overall message is. But I was given this as [part of] their justifucation for attacks; what they use to justify killing muslims and children, I dont know. The entire situation is very disturbing...

    Surahs of the Quran used by Islamists to justify attacking non-Muslims to establish a Caliphate.

    These are mere excerpts of the Holy Quran. These excerpts are not comprehensive of the message of the Quran nor are they meant to be representitive of the totality of its message. The sole reason for reproducing these Surahs here is to note which Surahs the Islamists refer to repeatedly to establish the rational for their goals and activites. These are not all the Surahs referred to by the Islamists, but they are central to their arguments.


    Surah 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure,"

    Surah 2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits...And slay them wherever ye catch them. And turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution is worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more persecution. And the religion becomes Allah's. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"

    Surah 9:38-39 "O ye who believe! What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things,"

    Surah 8:59-70 "Their state is like that of the people of Pharaoh, and of those before them who treated their Lord's signs as lies. We therefore destroy them in their sins, and We drowned the people of Pharaoh; for they were all doers of wrong. The worst beasts truly in the sight of God are the thankless who will not believe; They with whom thou hast leagued, and who are ever breaking their league, and who fear not God! If thou take them in war, then, by the example of their fate, scatter those who shall follow them - that they may be warned: Or if thou fear treachery from any people, throw back their treaty to them as thou fairly mayest, for God loveth not the treacherous. And think not that the infidels shall escape Us! The shall not weaken God....O Prophet! stir up the faithful to the fight. Twenty of you who stand firm shall vanquish two hundred: and if there be an hundred of you they shall vanquish a thousand of the infidels, for they are a people devoid of understanding....No prophet hath been enabled to take captives until he had made great slaughter in the earth. Ye desire the passing fruitions of this world, but God desireth the next life for you. And God is mighty and wise.

    Sura 9:5 "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is gracious, merciful.

    Sura 9:12 "But if, after alliance made, they break their oaths and revile your religion, then do battle with the ring-leaders of infidelity - for no oaths are binding with them - that they may desist. What! will ye not fight against those Meccans who have broken their oaths and aimed to expel your Apostle, and attacked you first? Will ye dread them? God is more worthy of your fear, if ye are believers! So make war on them: By your hands will God chastise them, and will put them to shame, and will give you victory over them, and will heal the bosoms of a people who believe;"

    Sura 9:30 "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, "Ezra is a son of God"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is a son of God." Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the saying of the infidels of old! God do battle with them! How are they misguided? They take their teachers, and their monks, and the Messiah, son of Mary, for lords besides God, though bidden to worship one God only. There is no God but He! Far from His glory be what they associate with Him! Fain would they put out God's light with their mouths: but God only desireth to perfect His light, albeit the infidels abhor it. He it is who hath sent His Apostle with the guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion, albeit they who assign partners to God be averse from it.
  • edited January 2006
    That's right you don't now enough about a very delicate situation. You are out of your depth and this is an International website. I would like to think we are promoting mindfulness and peace amongst humanity.
    Leave it ....please.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    *I closed this thread, due to a situation which is hopefully in the process of being resolved satisfactorily.
    When this happens, I would be delighted to re-open the thread.
    Apologies to all who have contributed and would like to do so further;
    "Normal Service Will Be resumed As Soon As possible". *

    Federica. :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    This thread is now re-opened, and anyone who wishes to make further contributions, is more than welcome to do so.

    However, a word to the wise:

    The same conditions apply, to this and every Thread, and every Post. I really don't want to have to do this again.

    Thank you.


    Post away!
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2006
    What the hell is going on?

    First thread is mysteriously closed due to some mysterious circumstance.

    Now it's open again, but if those same mysterious circumstances (that I have no idea what we' re talking about) happen again - threads are going to start disappearing again?

    I am soooooooooooooooooooo lost here....

    -bf
  • edited January 2006
    BF,

    I am at a loss as well! :scratch: I don't know what is going on either! Maybe, for me, that is a good thing!

    Adiana:hiding: :wavey:
  • edited January 2006
    buddhafoot wrote:
    What the hell is going on?

    First thread is mysteriously closed due to some mysterious circumstance.

    Now it's open again, but if those same mysterious circumstances (that I have no idea what we' re talking about) happen again - threads are going to start disappearing again?

    I am soooooooooooooooooooo lost here....

    -bf

    Is this a QUIZ?..........Select the answer you feel is most likely to be right!

    1) Federica was bored and felt an overwhelming desire to chose a thread at random and close it?

    2) Federica demonstrated the 'GOD' complex that she has been suffering from and closed the thread......Because SHE CAN?

    3) Federica closed the thread for a very good reason in her capacity as 'MODERATOR' a decision not taken lightly and with the BEST INTEREST of the Sangha at Heart?

    If the number '3' answer is not the majority response then I am sure BRIAN will be crushed in the Stampede of everyone clammering to be the NEW Moderator.

    The PM facility on this Forum needs to utilised a bit more, Federica spends hours and hours trawling through posts. This often thankless task requires the 'LIGHT' touch of diplomacy and total dedication.

    There is no need to tell everyone that these are my WORDS as they are grammatically inept!!

    post-771-1129369587.gif
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Abraham wrote:
    ................................ Federica spends hours and hours trawling through posts. ..................

    Trawling? Panning for gold, surely!

    I'm not sure precisely what prompted the closure of the thread but I want to state, unequivocally, that I have total trust in Federica's judgment. As a moderator, she is exemplary and I wish that there were more like her on the boards.

    The whole matter of terrorism/freedom fighting is so hot, current and divisive that Noble Silence and reflection may be of greater importance to the world than heated exchanges.
  • edited January 2006
    Fede...thank you for all the work you do in keeping this forum a "peaceful" place! :)

    I apologize for bringing up such a heated topic. My intention was to try to understand this topic more...not to cause arguments!
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    It has been voiced by another member that although they are against censorship in any form, there may be a case where certain subjects are vetoed, precisely due to their very sensitivity, and the emotions that they tend to engender. The subject of the current and continuing Middle-East conflict may come under this heading.

    Stemming from a discussion I have had with him in the past, I think Brian would rather rely on people's self-control and discipline to moderate themselves and to post in a manner befitting this forum....and I would agree.
    So it is not necessarily the topic which is heated... it is only made so by the timbre and content of responses and posts.

    A keyboard gives nothing, unless someone sits and taps at it.
    Thank you.
    :)
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Abraham wrote:
    Is this a QUIZ?..........Select the answer you feel is most likely to be right!

    1) Federica was bored and felt an overwhelming desire to chose a thread at random and close it?

    2) Federica demonstrated the 'GOD' complex that she has been suffering from and closed the thread......Because SHE CAN?

    3) Federica closed the thread for a very good reason in her capacity as 'MODERATOR' a decision not taken lightly and with the BEST INTEREST of the Sangha at Heart?

    If the number '3' answer is not the majority response then I am sure BRIAN will be crushed in the Stampede of everyone clammering to be the NEW Moderator.

    The PM facility on this Forum needs to utilised a bit more, Federica spends hours and hours trawling through posts. This often thankless task requires the 'LIGHT' touch of diplomacy and total dedication.

    There is no need to tell everyone that these are my WORDS as they are grammatically inept!!

    post-771-1129369587.gif

    What was "this" all about?

    -bf
  • edited January 2006
    Adiana wrote:
    BF,

    I am at a loss as well! :scratch: I don't know what is going on either! Maybe, for me, that is a good thing!

    Adiana:hiding: :wavey:

    When I posted this, I was confused as to what was even going on in the first place. I did not know that any thread or topic had been closed or even reopened for that matter since I have been on vacation in Florida. That is the only thing I meant; I was not being a smart aleck or anything to anyone. I am sure the moderators of this website have valid reasons for anything they choose to do. I just want to make sure that everyone understands this.

    Adiana:wow: :thumbsup:
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Adiana,

    I wouldn't worry about it.

    I'm thinking there was probably a little hiccup with some of us not playing nice with others - and then the hiccups must have gone away.

    I'm just pretending this thread is really about how cool everyone thinks I am!

    It's a really great thread - when you look at it like that.

    -bf
  • edited January 2006
    YogaMama wrote:
    My intention was to try to understand this topic more...not to cause arguments!

    As was mine. When someone kills in the name of God or religion I wonder what they are thinking and if their religion actually promotes the practice.

    It appears to me the suicide bombings and other killings in Iraq have something to do with the goal of establishing a Caliphate (one-world Islamic government based on Shariah law, as I understand it).

    I've also read about the desire to "re-create" the khilafa (the government of an Islamic state). And any who stand in the way of it, oppose it, or participate in other types of government (like a democracy) oppose their God and are therefore (by their interpretation of the Koran) enemies. This would explain why they believe its OK to kill other Muslims.

    Whether or not they are interpreting the Koran text correctly is not clear to me. Maybe a knowledgeable Muslim with read this thread and help us to understand?
  • ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
    edited January 2006
    The terrorists will not stop until all of us die, or all of them die. What should we as Buddhists try to do?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    Well, after watching a young man on TV last night, I am really asking the same question myself...
    He was shaven-headed, wearing a Moslem headdress, and heavily bearded.
    Born and raised an American Jew, articulate and intelligent, he travelled to Jerusalem to finish his studies I think, I'm not sure...It's irrelevant...and there, he became exposed and was influenced by Moslem extremism.... basically, he's convinced that by putting all heathen infidels to death ('heathen infidels' being anyone not Moslem) Islam will gradually gain world power.
    They will control us, control our women and take over... "They're doing it now. Look at how scared Governments the world over are of us.... we will dominate...."

    Oh boy.... If it hadn't been so blood-curdlingly frightening.... it still wouldn't have been funny...
  • edited January 2006
    Well, after watching a young man on TV last night, I am really asking the same question myself...
    He was shaven-headed, wearing a Moslem headdress, and heavily bearded.
    Born and raised an American Jew, articulate and intelligent, he travelled to Jerusalem to finish his studies I think, I'm not sure...It's irrelevant...and there, he became exposed and was influenced by Moslem extremism.... basically, he's convinced that by putting all heathen infidels to death ('heathen infidels' being anyone not Moslem) Islam will gradually gain world power.
    They will control us, control our women and take over... "They're doing it now. Look at how scared Governments the world over are of us.... we will dominate...."

    Oh boy.... If it hadn't been so blood-curdlingly frightening.... it still wouldn't have been funny...

    Was his name Yusef Al-Khattab? Even though he converted from Judaism to Islam I think that his hatred towards Jews is because of personal anger at the way he was treated when he first converted. When he converted to Islam he was beaten by Israeli soldiers, they made up lies against him saying that he beat his children (even though his wife denied it), and when they arrested him they gave his wife and children some money and told them to buy a house and to leave Yusuf. She didn't leave him though.
    However, this doesn't make it right to kill Jewish civilians.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    I have no recollection of his name, nor did they give any great background or information about him... All I know was that the way he spoke was extremely frightening, all the more because he was completely and utterly, unwaveringly convinced that he was right and everyone else was wrong... There was absolutely no swaying him, no grey area, no possibility of discourse.... His conviction that Humanity was damned, and that Islam would be Judge, Jury and Executioner was a joy and reality to him....

    Now: I am completely and utterly convinced that he is neither the representative of the majority, nor that every Moslem thinks that way. I am further convinced that an incalculable number of Muslims watching him last night must have reeled in horror, because people tend to lump others into one basket, and tar them all with the same brush....
    ....It's a habit humans have, which is why all Frenchmen cycle around with strings of onions around their neck and wear horizontal-stripe jerseys and berets, why all Italians are fat, jolly and with big moustaches (at least, that's the women!) and why Englishmen wear bowler-hats, carry briefcases and speak with a cut-glass accent....

    But you get my drift....

    I'm sure many Moslems will be contacting Channel 4 in protest, to insist they are not like that.... quite right too...I would, like a shot!

    But it's always the bad eggs that seem to get the publicity...
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    You can find out more on this site and learn more about the programme....
  • edited January 2006
    federica wrote:
    I have no recollection of his name, nor did they give any great background or information about him... All I know was that the way he spoke was extremely frightening, all the more because he was completely and utterly, unwaveringly convinced that he was right and everyone else was wrong... There was absolutely no swaying him, no grey area, no possibility of discourse.... His conviction that Humanity was damned, and that Islam would be Judge, Jury and Executioner was a joy and reality to him....

    Now: I am completely and utterly convinced that he is neither the representative of the majority, nor that every Moslem thinks that way. I am further convinced that an incalculable number of Muslims watching him last night must have reeled in horror, because people tend to lump others into one basket, and tar them all with the same brush....
    ....It's a habit humans have, which is why all Frenchmen cycle around with strings of onions around their neck and wear horizontal-stripe jerseys and berets, why all Italians are fat, jolly and with big moustaches (at least, that's the women!) and why Englishmen wear bowler-hats, carry briefcases and speak with a cut-glass accent....

    But you get my drift....

    I'm sure many Moslems will be contacting Channel 4 in protest, to insist they are not like that.... quite right too...I would, like a shot!

    But it's always the bad eggs that seem to get the publicity...

    I didn't see this program but I read on a website about a person called "Yusef Al-Khattab" who converted to Islam (from Judaism) but he hated Jews.

    May be the person you saw yesterday on Channel 4 isn't same guy that I read about, but does he look like this:
    yusufK.jpg

    I think Muslims should try to contact this person and tell him that he is wrong about his views and help him change them.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    Yes, that's Him....
    Looks really nice and cosy, in the picture, with his wife....

    Thank you for finding that....


    I read, in the site I posted the link to (under the heading 'Islam') that it's the fastest-growing religion in the world, which is fine by me.... but those who hold the strings have got their work cut out in order to improve its reputation, if people like this are permitted, as 'unelected spokesmen', to make such outrageous and inflammatory remarks such as he made....
  • edited January 2006
    Surahs of the Quran used by Islamists to justify attacking non-Muslims to establish a Caliphate.

    These are mere excerpts of the Holy Quran. These excerpts are not comprehensive of the message of the Quran nor are they meant to be representitive of the totality of its message. The sole reason for reproducing these Surahs here is to note which Surahs the Islamists refer to repeatedly to establish the rational for their goals and activites. These are not all the Surahs referred to by the Islamists, but they are central to their arguments.


    Surah 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure,"

    Surah 2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits...And slay them wherever ye catch them. And turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution is worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more persecution. And the religion becomes Allah's. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"

    Surah 9:38-39 "O ye who believe! What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things,"

    Surah 8:59-70 "Their state is like that of the people of Pharaoh, and of those before them who treated their Lord's signs as lies. We therefore destroy them in their sins, and We drowned the people of Pharaoh; for they were all doers of wrong. The worst beasts truly in the sight of God are the thankless who will not believe; They with whom thou hast leagued, and who are ever breaking their league, and who fear not God! If thou take them in war, then, by the example of their fate, scatter those who shall follow them - that they may be warned: Or if thou fear treachery from any people, throw back their treaty to them as thou fairly mayest, for God loveth not the treacherous. And think not that the infidels shall escape Us! The shall not weaken God....O Prophet! stir up the faithful to the fight. Twenty of you who stand firm shall vanquish two hundred: and if there be an hundred of you they shall vanquish a thousand of the infidels, for they are a people devoid of understanding....No prophet hath been enabled to take captives until he had made great slaughter in the earth. Ye desire the passing fruitions of this world, but God desireth the next life for you. And God is mighty and wise.

    Sura 9:5 "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is gracious, merciful.

    Sura 9:12 "But if, after alliance made, they break their oaths and revile your religion, then do battle with the ring-leaders of infidelity - for no oaths are binding with them - that they may desist. What! will ye not fight against those Meccans who have broken their oaths and aimed to expel your Apostle, and attacked you first? Will ye dread them? God is more worthy of your fear, if ye are believers! So make war on them: By your hands will God chastise them, and will put them to shame, and will give you victory over them, and will heal the bosoms of a people who believe;"

    Sura 9:30 "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, "Ezra is a son of God"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is a son of God." Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the saying of the infidels of old! God do battle with them! How are they misguided? They take their teachers, and their monks, and the Messiah, son of Mary, for lords besides God, though bidden to worship one God only. There is no God but He! Far from His glory be what they associate with Him! Fain would they put out God's light with their mouths: but God only desireth to perfect His light, albeit the infidels abhor it. He it is who hath sent His Apostle with the guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion, albeit they who assign partners to God be averse from it.

    None of these verses are in the correct context.
    Let's go through them:
    Surah 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure,"

    This verse doesn't mean that you can unjustly fight anyone. You can only fight for the right cause, i.e. in self-defense or against oppression.
    Surah 2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits...And slay them wherever ye catch them. And turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution is worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more persecution. And the religion becomes Allah's. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"

    You are only allowed to fight those people who are attacking you, as the verse clearly says "Fight those in the cause of Allah those who fight you". You cannot fight someone who hasn't attacked you first. The verse also says "do no trangress limits".
    Surah 9:38-39 "O ye who believe! What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things,"

    If your country is being attacked by evil invaders or by people who want to destroy your religion then it is COMPULSORY for you to fight them. You cannot just sit at home while others are fighting against them. Here, Allah is telling Muslims not to love this life so much that we want to stay home and not fight. It is a sin not to take action while oppression is prevailing.
    Sura 9:5 "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is gracious, merciful.

    This verse is in the context of a war. The Pagans and enemies of Islam frequently made treaties of mutual alliance with the Muslims. While the Muslims faithfully observed their part of the treaties, the Pagans had no regard for their treaties and they repeatedly broke agreements which bound them to remain on peaceful terms with the Muslims. This ultimately led to a declaration of immunity from treaty obligations because it was impossible for the Muslims to to be bound to the terms of the agreements while the Pagans could violate them to their advantage.

    "How (can there be such a treaty), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked" (Quran 9:8)

    However, this immunity from treaty obligations did not apply to those tribes who remained true to their obligations. The Muslims were told to fulfil their obligations towards these tribes. This is stated in the verses below:

    "(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous." (Quran 9:4)

    "How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty." (Quran 9:7)

    The Muslims were instructed to fight only those Pagans who violated the terms of the treaty by attacking the Muslims and plotting to expel the Prophet from Madinah:

    "Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!" (Quran 9:13)

    However, the sixth verse clearly states that if any of the idolators seek protection from the Muslims, the Muslims must provide them protection and escort them to a place of safety without harming them in any way:

    "And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection, then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not." (Quran 9:6)


    The Quran also instructs Muslims to be peaceful with the enemy if they agree to make peace:

    "And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower." (Quran 8:61)

    Muslim are told to deal kindly and justly with the non-believers as long as they do not fight us or our faith:

    "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." (Quran 60:8)

    Verse 9:5 is in the context of a war in which Muslims were instructed to fight in order to defend themselves. It was for that time only.


    Islam completely forbids taking away another person's life, which Allah was made sacred, unless that person has murdered someone else. The following verses of the Quran illustrates this:

    "Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. " (Quran 25:68)

    "...whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind..." (Quran 5:32)
  • edited January 2006
    Thank you for all of that information, Muslim Youth. You have been very helpful!
  • edited January 2006
    Thank you for all of that information, Muslim Youth. You have been very helpful!

    Your welcome, YogaMama.

    Though I'm a Muslim, I am not by any means an expert on Islam. I'll try my best with my current knowledge to clear any misconceptions or misunderstandings that anyone has with Islam. I'm still learning about my faith and will gladly share my knowledge with others.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Hunt4life wrote:
    As was mine. When someone kills in the name of God or religion I wonder what they are thinking and if their religion actually promotes the practice.

    It appears to me the suicide bombings and other killings in Iraq have something to do with the goal of establishing a Caliphate (one-world Islamic government based on Shariah law, as I understand it).

    I've also read about the desire to "re-create" the khilafa (the government of an Islamic state). And any who stand in the way of it, oppose it, or participate in other types of government (like a democracy) oppose their God and are therefore (by their interpretation of the Koran) enemies. This would explain why they believe its OK to kill other Muslims.

    Whether or not they are interpreting the Koran text correctly is not clear to me. Maybe a knowledgeable Muslim with read this thread and help us to understand?


    Part of my problem is that I am not sure if this is any different from killing people in order to change their governance to our economic and political model.
  • edited January 2006
    It's really not all that different, is it, Simon?
  • edited January 2006
    Muslim Youth you certainly seem to know your subject and I detect a calm passion in your words.
    I was wondering as the to Islam's perception to Socialism. ( I can here everyone running for cover).What are your thought?
    Forgive my ignorance.
    HH
  • edited January 2006
    Part of my problem is that I am not sure if this is any different from killing people in order to change their governance to our economic and political model.

    Simon,
    If the terrorists want to establish a Caliphate (in Muslim countries) then it should by done through politics and not by terrorism. I don't see how terrorists can establish a Caliphate by killing innocent people (both Muslims and non-muslims) with their car bombs. Moreover, for their goal to be acheived they must first unite the Muslims instead of seperating them. They are further dividing Sunni and Shia muslims by blowing up their car bombs in front of Shia mosques and funerals.
    A Jihad would only be applicable if Muslims were being persecuted or expelled from the country. And even in a Jihad you cannot kill non-combatants. You can only fight enemy soldiers.

    When Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) first started spreading the message of Islam, the leaders of Mecca were worried that they would no longer be able to sell their idols to anyone. Mecca at that time was the centre of Paganism and idolatry and the leaders used to make lots of money by selling idols to travellers coming from different parts of Arabia. However, the Prophet told people that they should worship the One true God (Allah). This would mean that peope would longer buy idols so the leaders wanted to stop the Prophet from spreading his message. They offered him a lot of wealth if he gave up his mission of spreading Islam, buy he refused the offer. After that, they started persecuting Muslims and eventually all Muslims were expelled from the city. Finally, Allah sent a message (in the Quran) commanding Muslims to fight the Meccans in order to get back into the city where they were expelled from.
    During the Prophet's time people didn't just randomly kill innocent people to spread Islam, but they only fought when it was needed for survival. The Pagans had to aim of ending Islam and wanted to kill the Muslims and the Prophet. When the Muslims regained control of Mecca, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) forgave his enemies and he even pardoned the the slave (of his enemy) who killed the Prophet's beloved uncle Hamza.
    Muslim Youth you certainly seem to know your subject and I detect a calm passion in your words.
    I was wondering as the to Islam's perception to Socialism. ( I can here everyone running for cover).What are your thought?
    Forgive my ignorance.
    HH

    Islam has it's own policial system (sorry, don't know much about the politics).
  • edited January 2006


    Part of my problem is that I am not sure if this is any different from killing people in order to change their governance to our economic and political model.

    Killing is killing, of course.

    But when one side is killing in an attempt to stop 20 million people who apparently want to participate in that system of free choice (apparently, because they are) and another kills in defense and to allow those who want to participate in the system, there is a difference. Though, probably not from an ideal Buddhist perspective.


    Muslim_Youth, thank you for the posts. I look forward to spending some time reading them.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited January 2006
    Simon,
    If the terrorists want to establish a Caliphate (in Muslim countries) then it should by done through politics and not by terrorism. I don't see how terrorists can establish a Caliphate by killing innocent people (both Muslims and non-muslims) with their car bombs. Moreover, for their goal to be acheived they must first unite the Muslims instead of seperating them. They are further dividing Sunni and Shia muslims by blowing up their car bombs in front of Shia mosques and funerals.
    A Jihad would only be applicable if Muslims were being persecuted or expelled from the country. And even in a Jihad you cannot kill non-combatants. You can only fight enemy soldiers.

    ....................................

    I agree entirely that whatever system is desired needs to be brought about by political means if at all possible.

    My Sufi friends teach that the jihad is internal rather than 'out there': it is the soul's struggle to live fully in the Beloved. Using it as a tool for war goes against their reading of the suras. Peace is seen as the ultimate blessing. After all, when we speak of the Prophet, we add "Peace be on him". It must be heartbreaking to be part of an Umma which seems bent on tearing itself apart.

    I find myself offended by the term that is currently being used in our media to describe the Muslims speaking for peace. They are called "moderate", a lukewarm term. Surely, these men and women are the real voice of the majority who would prefer peace to war, co-operation to confrontation?

    "This is the greatest wonder, that thou and I, sitting here in the same nook,
    Are at this momnt both in Iraq and Khorasan, thou and I."
    Rumi (trans. R. A. Nicholson)
  • edited January 2006
    Simon,
    The word "Jihad" simply means "Struggle" in Arabic. It does NOT mean "Holy War" as the media usually mistranslates it. Jihad is to struggle for a worthy cause. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said that the best Jihad is one against one's own desires:

    "The best Jihad is for one to perform Jihad against his own self and against his desires" (Abu Nu'aim)

    "Jihad against one's own self in the Cause of Allah is the best Jihad" (At-Tabaraani)

    "Jihad against one's own desires" mean to struggle against your own evil tempations. This kind of Jihad, called "Jihad Al-Nafs" may involve struggling against your own temptations to lie, steal, harm others, immorality, etc. (Obviously this kind of Jihad doesn't involve any weapons because it's a mental struggle about trying not to give in to your temptations).
  • edited January 2006
    buddhafoot wrote:
    Adiana,

    I wouldn't worry about it.

    I'm thinking there was probably a little hiccup with some of us not playing nice with others - and then the hiccups must have gone away.

    I'm just pretending this thread is really about how cool everyone thinks I am!

    It's a really great thread - when you look at it like that.

    -bf


    BF,

    :D:D:D

    Adiana:wavey:
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    Simon,
    The word "Jihad" simply means "Struggle" in Arabic. It does NOT mean "Holy War" as the media usually mistranslates it.

    It's so gratifying to learn things like this, because it enables us to further our desire to use 'Right Speech'.Next time I hear someone using this term incorrectly, I will be able to ever-so-gently whump them on the back of the head with my metaphorical Buddha-skillet and correct them!:crazy: :D Thank you Muslim-Youth... for everybody's sake, keep posting!!
  • edited January 2006
    federica wrote:
    It's so gratifying to learn things like this, because it enables us to further our desire to use 'Right Speech'.Next time I hear someone using this term incorrectly, I will be able to ever-so-gently whump them on the back of the head with my metaphorical Buddha-skillet and correct them!:crazy: :D Thank you Muslim-Youth... for everybody's sake, keep posting!!


    I'm very happy to see that my posts are actually being helpful. My O Levels will end on January 27th, this month. After that I'll be more active on this forums. Now I have to study for my Accounting exam tomorrow.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2006
    Good luck with your exams...
    This is the kind of Inter-Faith dialogue which is so vital to spread and engender... I'm kinda sad that POJ123 hasn't come back to us for a while, but maybe this will change... we need to link hands around the world and show the extremists (from every denomination) that they have a "fight" on their hands - !!

    Go study! Do what you need to do, then come back and tell us how they went!

  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited January 2006
    I think that your comments on the true jihad, MY, open us to the real advantages of dialogue: every philosophico-religious system that I know calls us to understanding and control of self/mind/soul. And each system has its own, different flavour, just like cuisine around the world. It has its own recipes and staples. We may like some more than others - and are likely to prefer the tastes from the nursery, but we can also learn to enjoy the cooking from many societies and cultures. We may, even, create our own fusion menus, to the disgust of the purists.

    But we only do this to meet a very basic human need: hunger. I doubt whether a starving person really worries whether it is OK to curry parsnips!
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited January 2006
    THE BEATLES (& WINGS) TAUGHT ME A LOT ABOUT JUST BEING GOOD.

    A talk I'd like to have with a potential suicide bomber in the passenger seat of my car:
    [Driving along a suburban road, going 45 mph in a 40 mph zone, no traffic, one lane, solid yellow line (That means no passing in the U.S.). We're in a hurry to get nowhere or somewhere, you decide. A shiny new Buick pulls right out in front of us, running a stop sign. (The lady driving it obviously is too short to see much over the steering wheel, and doubtless missed the YIELD sign. We failed to stop at the STOP sign, but we were in a hurry, ya'know.) The folks in the car are in their 80s and 90s, we gather.]

    Slowing down behind them, I say: <<Look, how lovely it must be for these people to be able to get up and get out on the road today. What a perfect day it must be for them! That is so neat. Don't they look happy.>>

    Driving on, we pass a large body of water, and turn onto a road that runs right along it for miles. We see a luxury liner and stop and get out of the car to get a coffee at a Starbucks. I say, <<Gosh, just look at those people enjoying themselves. I feel really happy when I see people obviously enjoying their holiday.>> (I'm not going to describe specific happy acts.) <<What if these people had just half an hour's "holiday" or half a day's, after work, wouldn't their happiness and security be desirable too?>>

    <<People Everywhere have the right to enjoy the fruits of their labours, love, studies, patience, forbearance above and beyond the call of duty and also
    "the right to life, liberty and security of person," as stated by the third article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.* Killing people, especially on a "suicide mission," is just insane, totally and for all time unacceptable, and hellish.>>
    <<I guess what I'm talking about here, Joe Schmoe the SooeyCidalBeBomber, is A PEACEABLE KINGDOM, where EVERYONE is entitled to a level playing field and where no one is to suffer any harm from anyone. Going well beyond the concept of human rights, the politics of the future must be placed on people having a correct or complete "attitude," to ensure a peaceable kingdom we can all share. How can you say you have a higher truth, which you can't even explain to me, but can close your eyes to the well-being of people right before your eyes? Why do you wish to destroy or punish people you haven't even met and who have done you no wrong, simply because they are labelled with a different label than you, as it were? Does the fact that there are squabbles or competitions between the two "labels" justify making even greater rifts? Have you ever heard of brainwashing? (Why they call it that escapes me; they should call it brain-clouding.)>>


    I believe in a PEACEABLE KINGDOM where having a proper attitude towards all one's fellow human beings, regardless of caste, race, religion, gender, personality, ethics or lack of them, wealth or lack of it, sexual orientation, intelligence, or most anything else will be of the utmost importance. And that attitude is simply this: Be respectful and kind; roll up your sleeves and give aid rather than criticise; be more interested in the opinions of others than your own, and don't insist on your own way. Give people space and time, realizing that sometimes timing is everything. Having a respectful Attitude encompasses a lot of things, since "attitude" is defined as both: a "posture" taken or a disposition, and a "state of mind or a feeling." In other words, an attitude encompasses a view, the thinking behind that view, and the resulting posturing that results from these, which will show forth in words and activities, and everything else we do.



    By Paul McCartney:

    You'd Think That People Would Have Had Enough Of Silly Love Songs.
    But I Look Around Me And I See It Isn't So.
    Some People Wanna Fill The World With Silly Love Songs.
    And What's Wrong With That?
    I'd Like To Know, 'Cause Here I Go Again
    I Love You, I Love You,
    I Love You, I Love You.

    I Can't Explain The Feeling's Plain To Me; Say Can't You See?
    Ah, She Gave Me More, She Gave It All To Me
    Now Can't You See, What's Wrong With That
    I Need To Know, 'Cause Here I Go Again
    I Love You, I Love You.

    Love Doesn't Come In A Minute,
    Sometimes It Doesn't Come At All
    I Only Know That When I'm In It
    It Isn't Silly, No, It Isn't Silly, Love Isn't Silly At All.

    How Can I Tell You About My Loved One?
    How Can I Tell You About My Loved One?

    How Can I Tell You About My Loved One?
    (I Loveyou)
    How Can I Tell You About My Loved One?
    (I Loveyou)
    [Repeat And Fade


    <b>
    On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and "to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."
    PREAMBLE</b>
    • Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,
      Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,
      Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,
      Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,
      Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,
      Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,
      Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,
    Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction. Article 1.
    • All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
    Article 2.
    • Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
    Article 3.
    • Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
    Article 4.
    • No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
    Article 5.
    • No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
    Article 6.
    • Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
    Article 7.
    • All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
    Article 8.
    • Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
    Article 9.
    • No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
    Article 10.
    • Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
    Article 11.
    • (1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
      (2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
    Article 12.
    • No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
    Article 13.
    • (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
      (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
    Article 14.
    • (1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
      (2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
    Article 15.
    • (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
      (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
    Article 16.
    • (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
      (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
      (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
    Article 17.
    • (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
      (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
    Article 18.
    • Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
    Article 19.
    • Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
    Article 20.
    • (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
      (2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
    Article 21.
    • (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
      (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
      (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
    Article 22.
    • Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
    Article 23.
    • (1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
      (2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
      (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
      (4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
    Article 24.
    • Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
    Article 25.
    • (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
      (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
    Article 26.
    • (1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
      (2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
      (3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
    Article 27.
    • (1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
      (2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
    Article 28.
    • Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
    Article 29.
    • (1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
      (2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
      (3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
    Article 30.
    • Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

  • ajani_mgoajani_mgo Veteran
    edited January 2006
    I read the Declaration once before... It formed the basic code of conduct I have instiled into my life... I think all who call themselves humans should bother to follow it- respect, peace and forgiveness.
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited January 2006
    I expected a lot more hostile exchange from you folks, after all how am I gonna get a suicide bomber over here to ride in my car awhile?
    And that Paul McCartney Song?
    And my listing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

    I DON'T THINK THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT CAN BE SOLVED IN THIS GENERATION. A new generation's gonna have to come along OVER THERE and see things in a fresh light. Therefore, we've gotta get our politicians' heads screwed on aright, so we can do our part to present ourselves in the best light.
    Meanwhile, here's Melanie Safka from many years ago:



    BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE --by Melanie Safka

    Beautiful people
    You live in the same world as I do
    But somehow I never noticed
    You before today
    I'm ashamed to say

    Beautiful people
    We share the same back door
    And it isn't right
    We never met before
    But then
    We may never meet again
    If I weren't afraid you'd laugh at me
    I would run and take all your hands
    And I'd gather everyone together for a day
    And when we gather'd
    I'll pass buttons out that say
    Beautiful people
    Then you'd never have to be alone
    'Cause there'll always be someone
    With the same button on as you
    Include him in everything you do.

    Beautiful people
    You ride the same subway
    As I do ev'ry morning
    That's got to tell you something
    We've got so much in common
    I go the same direction that you do
    So if you take care of me
    Maybe I'll take care of you

    Beautiful people
    You look like friends of mine
    And it's about time
    That someone said it here and now
    I make a vow that some time, somehow
    I'll have a meeting
    Invite ev'ryone you know
    I'll pass out buttons to
    The ones who come to show
    Beautiful people
    Never have to be alone
    'Cause there'll always be someone
    With the same button on as you
    Include him in ev'rything you do
    He may be sitting right next to you
    He may be beautiful people too
    And if you take care of him
    Maybe I'll take care of you
    And if you take care of him
    Maybe I'll take care of you...



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