Right Livelihood

zidangus

Well I have a friend who has just been offered a job at AWE (Atomic Weapons Establishment)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Weapons_Establishment

and he has decided to accept it, of course I wish him well in his job, but I thought to myself as a Buddhist could I take a job like this ? I mean would working at the AWE be considered wrong livelihood ?. I came to the conclusion that it would be, since at the end of the day I would be working with weapons that can kill sentient beings, but it took a while to come to this conclusion.
So I'm just wondering would other people see working for the AWE as wrong livelihood ? or does anyone think that my conclusions are wrong, and working for the AWE would not conflict with a persons Buddhists beliefs ?
Your views would be appreciated


With Metta

Talisman

According to the the Buddha one of the wrong livlihoods is selling weapons and arms.

ill search for the quote

federica

I agree with you.

I stunk at maths, as a kid. Algebra was a complete mystery and a total anathema to me, and wholly and entirely pointless to my mathematically-incapable brain.
My maths teacher, brimming over with frustration, one day exclaimed -
"You MUST try to understand this! What are you going to do, if one day you are in a job that requires proficiency and understanding of this type of maths?!?"

I instantly replied -
"I loathe, despise, cannot stand and simply cannot get my head around this subject! I can't do it - what on earth makes you imagine for a single nano-second, that I would even seek a career that required this as a condition of employment - ??!?"

If it goes against everything you understand and accept - why even bring it into consideration? (hypothetically speaking.....):)

Talisman

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."

Vanijja Sutta

zidangus

I think the job my friend has is inspecting the warheads, to make sure they are ok, so technically that is not selling weapons. But I know what you mean, he is working with weapons, so I think it is wrong livelihood.

With Metta

zidangus

I brought it into consideration, because my contract runs out soon, and to be honest the state of nuclear physics research in the UK is terrible, there is no funding at all, and I do not want to move abroad, so I think I am going to have to look for a job like my friend has done, either in industry or in teaching. The AWE is a big recruiter in my field, and has been suggested to me by my friend and also others so yes I did need to think about this as an option. However, I have always told myself even before I became a Buddhist that I would never work on weapons research or anything like that, and this has been reinforced through my Buddhists practice. So this option was rejected by me.
I'm just wondering if other people would do the same and not work for such an establishment.

With Metta

zidangus

I found an interesting article on this, Im not saying I agree with it but none the less its an interesting point of view

http://zbohy.zatma.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/7thWorld/c15p1.html

With MEtta

fivebells

...the state of nuclear physics research in the UK is terrible, there is no funding at all, and I do not want to move abroad, so I think I am going to have to look for a job like my friend has done, either in industry or in teaching.

I haven't been following the UK economy very closely, but my understanding is that you are in for some serious economic pain over the next couple of years. If that's the case, a teaching job isn't likely to be very stable. Probably you want to look at industry. (Not weapons, obviously, if only because military organizations are invariably filled with domineering bastards not to mention the more cogent reasons given upthread.)

NOTaGangsta

You should move to Australia! I hear there's heaps of jobs there!

zidangus

Well I think its an interesting topic, because there are a lot of jobs which are not so clear if it applies or not, and also to what extent do we take right livelihood, as it says in the link I gave, would a joiner working on a bar where intoxicating drinks were sold be considered wrong livelihood ? Would a physician who administers medicines which poison thousands of innocent intestinal worms that happen to be living in a child's abdomen be wrong livelihood ? Would a politician who spins the facts to justify a policy be wrong livelihood ? If these questions were asked to a Budsshist I am sure the answers would not all be the same.

The author of the article states this


"Therefore, the solution we apply to the problem of Right Livelihood is simple: A Buddhist may earn his living in any way that is honest and legal. He may sell guns... but not to someone he reasonably suspects is insane or who intends to use the gun for a criminal purpose. He may be a vegetarian and a cowboy... a shoemaker, a butcher, a soldier, a bartender, and, lest there be any doubt, he may even be the man who throws the switch on someone legally condemned to die. If he doesn't approve of capital punishment, he doesn't have to take the job."

http://zbohy.zatma.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/7thWorld/c15p1.html

What do people think, do you agree with this statement. My opinion is that I agree with it half way, but for some jobs such as soldier this is wrong livelihood in my opinion.



With Metta

fivebells

I think that text you're quoting is making a category error, because it is treating Buddhist morality as prescriptive, when it makes more sense to read it as describing the effects of practice.

zidangus

For me a lot of jobs such as soldier or working in an abattoir are clear cut as far as wrong livelihood. However, a lot of jobs or not so clear cut, I mean they have effects which some Buddhists would consider wrong livelihood while others wouldn't. For example the case of working with weapons, which is what I was originally talking about. Would you consider a UN weapons inspector wrong livelihood ? I do not think I would consider it as wrong livelihood, but I am sure many Buddhists would, and my friends job of inspecting the warheads to ensure that they are safe, this is not really weapons research or a job which is intentionally set out to harm sentient beings but rather a safety inspector job in my opinion, now is this wrong livelihood ? again I'm not so sure that it is, cases like this are a bit blurry to me as far as wrong livelihood concerns. I mean are there any jobs apart form being a monk, which you could say with 100 % it satisfies right livelihood ? I mean somewhere down the line there will be a connection with that job and wrong livelihood right ?


With Metta

hermitwin

Always err on the side of caution.

Floating_Abu

For me a lot of jobs such as soldier or working in an abattoir are clear cut as far as wrong livelihood. However, a lot of jobs or not so clear cut, I mean they have effects which some Buddhists would consider wrong livelihood while others wouldn't. For example the case of working with weapons, which is what I was originally talking about. Would you consider a UN weapons inspector wrong livelihood ? I do not think I would consider it as wrong livelihood, but I am sure many Buddhists would, and my friends job of inspecting the warheads to ensure that they are safe, this is not really weapons research or a job which is intentionally set out to harm sentient beings but rather a safety inspector job in my opinion, now is this wrong livelihood ? again I'm not so sure that it is, cases like this are a bit blurry to me as far as wrong livelihood concerns. I mean are there any jobs apart form being a monk, which you could say with 100 % it satisfies right livelihood ? I mean somewhere down the line there will be a connection with that job and wrong livelihood right ?


With Metta

Hi zidangus
I wish you well on your job front.
Best wishes,
Abu

PS I just left my job not because it was wrong livelihood but because I just wanted to do something which I find more meaningful. No one (I think) can really tell us what and what not to do but we have to find the meaning in our own lives to carve the reality we also seek. Good Luck and good tidings

zidangus

Thanks Floating_Abu,

I wish you luck also

I actually think I will end up going into teaching, as I really think that is a worthwhile job and something I would enjoy doing.


With Metta

Dakini

Ah, you beat me to it, zid. I was going to suggest you choose teaching, rather than nuclear weapons science. Let us know if/when you get a teaching job.
Life does sometimes force people to make choices that go against their values, just to earn a paycheck, but fortunately, you have the teaching option. I hope it works out.

shanyin

Besides the fact that it's obviously something the Buddha would condemn... who wants to work with the only thing that can wipe out our whole species... which is still a threat today.

zidangus

Ah, you beat me to it, zid. I was going to suggest you choose teaching, rather than nuclear weapons science. Let us know if/when you get a teaching job.
Life does sometimes force people to make choices that go against their values, just to earn a paycheck, but fortunately, you have the teaching option. I hope it works out.

I certainly will let you know if I get a teaching job Dakini, I would rather stay in physics research, preferably astrophysics, which is why I went to university in the first place. I ended up doing a PhD in nuclear physics because of a lack of funding for astrophysic PhD's). Anyway like I say funding in the UK is terrible at the moment,so there are very few Postdoc positions available for both nuclear physics and astrophysics, there are quite a few in the USA and Canada, but I am not to keen to move outside of Europe and really want to stay in the UK.
Anyway I have been sending lots of applications of recently to loads of companies and universities, since I figure its best not to put all your eggs in one basket and keep as many options open as possible, but nothing so far. Anyway I sent my application of last month for a teacher training course, so fingers crossed I can hear something back soon.

With Metta

zidangus

Besides the fact that it's obviously something the Buddha would condemn... who wants to work with the only thing that can wipe out our whole species... which is still a threat today.

I hear what your saying shanyin,
but for the case of my friend, he is actually inspecting the warheads and making sure that there is no risk of anyone being harmed from them at the site where they are housed. So I just think that for a job like this its not so straight forward that it is wrong livelihood.


With Metta