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An analogy for rebirth vs reincarnation?

personperson Don't believe everything you thinkThe liminal space Veteran
edited April 2011 in Philosophy
I've been trying to come up with an analogy to describe the difference. The best I've got so far is rebirth is like planting a seed from a plant to grow a new one and reincarnation is like using a cutting from a plant to grow another one. Do people think this is apt? Are there flaws to this explanation? Is there a better analogy?

I'm pretty new to this forum so sorry if this is just rehashing old topics.

:coffee:

Comments

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    Rebirth is one flame giving rise to another, reincarnation is the same exact flame somehow being moved from one candle to another.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Actually, I think the plant seed/cutting is a good one....
    because it's very simple, and extremely visually effective. The imagery has impact....
    The candle flame works very well in a re-birth sense, but I'm not sure how to transform that imagery into illustrating reincarnation, in as visually-effective a way.... :)

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Neither can I fed, which is exactly why I think it's a good analogy. Reincarnation is as mysterious as a candle flame jumping candles, remaining the same flame. :D

    The Buddha taught rebirth, and just as one flame providing the conditions for lighting another candle, this needs no further elaboration. This causes that, we see it at work every day. Reincarnation is a later teaching that requires more faith.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    Reincarnation implies that there is an "I" (the "me") that comes back in another body. The "same person" returns. Since there is no "I" to start with, how can it be reincarnated?

    Rebirth (to my understanding) means that the energy that underlies my "me" is what is reborn. There is no personality, no physical traits, no distinct memories, no factual knowledge. Just the energy - which as we know from science, can neither be created nor destroyed.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Reincarnation implies that there is an "I" (the "me") that comes back in another body. The "same person" returns. Since there is no "I" to start with, how can it be reincarnated?
    haha! This would be a great question to ask the Dalai Lama, or any lama. ^_^

  • still_learningstill_learning Veteran
    I like those analogies.

    I've always wondered what happens to the "I" feeling when we die. I can't imagine it ever going away. But then again that could be my own attachment to the idea of always having that feeling. The hardest thing for me to understand is if the "I" feeling disappears, I would no longer have thoughts. I just can't help but think that my "consciousness" would always be active.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    @still_learning, Your consciousness is active whenever there is something to be conscious of. When you no longer see that as being some permanent, unchanging self that is "I", that's just a change in how you view yourself and the world. You still see, hear, think, have emotions (even still get angry in the earlier stages), but you see things in an entirely different way that is outside of "normal" experience. Nothing is lost except ignorance, nothing gained except wisdom.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Do you know those magician tricks where they make a coin disappear and make it come out of your ear? A coin disappears ("dies") and arises somewhere else.

    People who thing it is the exact same coin believe in reincarnation, people who think it is another coin are those in favor of rebirth ;)

    And only those who know the trick can tell for sure.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    I like those analogies.

    I've always wondered what happens to the "I" feeling when we die. I can't imagine it ever going away. But then again that could be my own attachment to the idea of always having that feeling. The hardest thing for me to understand is if the "I" feeling disappears, I would no longer have thoughts. I just can't help but think that my "consciousness" would always be active.
    It's a difficult concept to get your brain around, especially if you've grown up in a western oriented society where *everything* is based on "me". Who "you" are in this life is not really you. In this life you are male or female, tall or short, fat or thin, hyper or sedate, etc, etc, etc. None of that is truly who you are. That's your existence in this life, but it's not the essence of who/what you are. All of that stuff goes away when we die. "You" are no more. It's all ephemeral, and disappears at death. The underlying beingness of you is what goes on, and what has come before.
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    There is still a stream of consciousness reborn moment to moment, life to life. Although I cannot say for certain if the Dalai Lama really is the product of the rebirth of the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara, I do believe that Avalokiteshvara is a bodhisattva who has chosen rebirth for countelss eons in the round of death and rebirth in order to perfect the faculties necessary for acheiving rightly self-awakened buddhahood.

    There is no permanent abiding self that transmigrates from body to body. And honestly, I don't think it would be conceivably POSSIBLE for anybody to know that they are/were Avalokiteshvara until after acheiving samyaksambuddhahood and realizing with clarity all of their previous lives. It could be also that Avalokiteshvara has taken many forms at any one time based on prior volition. It is IMPOSSIBLE to know for sure.
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