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compassion for christians
zombiegirl
beating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wasteland Veteran
as of late, i have realized that i have a very condescending attitude toward christians/chistianity that i am having a great deal of trouble shaking off. once upon a time, i considered myself a christian but in the process of dealing with my sexuality, i ended up rejecting the whole religion altogether. i think a lot of gay people follow this cycle and i think it's quite natural. it's a self preservation technique to reject ideology that does not support something that becomes quite fundamental to your life. my thoughts were, "if they could be so wrong about THIS(homosexuality), how can i trust them on other topics?"
so anyways, that was in the past and now i'm pretty unconcerned with christian dogma as whole except for my experiences with christians. many christians are very passionate about their faith and in the US, they frequently seem to assume that everyone is like-minded. this means that they are constantly asserting christian perspectives on the world which i no longer share. i wish i could say that these comments do not affect me, but i think it is more honest to say that regardless of what i may say to the person, i feel an internal "eye roll." simply put, i am judging them but i wish i could feel more accepting of their beliefs.
my biggest problem with this involves my girlfriend's mother. she's rather interesting to me because i guess you'd have to call her a "born again" christian. she was never raised particularly christian, but as a result of her second marriage, she became very invested in church. while she is accepting of me as her daughter's partner (because she can see that i treat her well and she is happy), she is not afraid to speak her mind on how it is still a sin. sometimes she'll offer helpful hints like, "you know, the sin isn't being gay, the sin is acting on it!" although i'm not sure how she could think this is helpful seeing as she knows we live together and share a bed. sometimes she'll just say things about how her daughter was, "almost perfect, except she's gay." and sometimes she'll just say to me, "why couldn't you have been a boy!" i don't think she cares how offensive or hurtful her comments are because she feels that it is right. she believes the bible is the literal word of god. of course she has suffered as a result of this belief as well, it's impossible to think that it doesn't hurt her to truly believe her daughter is going to hell. sometimes i just feel like i want to share my "good news" with her, but i know she won't accept it.
homosexuality is a topic that i am very passionate about and i am unaccustomed to holding my tongue when offended. her mother and i have gotten into it a few times on topics of gay pride parades and my best friend (who is a gay man), but my girlfriend has asked that i try not to speak my mind. she already knows from prior experience that it will get nowhere. but when we visit her, i frequently feel like she's just trying to shove this stuff down my throat. she knows about my interest in buddhism, but i never really talk about it. my girlfriend says that her mother puts on a show for me, acting a lot more "holy roller" than she does normally. i'm not sure why this would be, but she says it's pretty much the same way she acts in church. she's really not a bad person and i actually like her a great deal so long as we're not discussing religion. sometimes i forget how much of a bible thumper she is until i say something wrong and i feel like the fangs come out, lol. then i'm stuck backpedaling and trying to get into her good graces again, but on the inside i just feel like i'm beating my head against a wall. i try to find common ground with her, because i used to really love going to church when i was younger, but even this is difficult because she is southern baptist and i went to a non-denominational church which was super liberal and very accepting. she looks down on those types of christians as well.
as a result of all this, i find it really hard to stay compassionate when these topics come up. i try very hard not to let my real feelings show (i don't want to offend her), but i can't say that on the inside i'm not judging her. as far as christianity at large, i know that it has made a positive effect on a lot of people's lives and i can see the beauty in that... but in regards to her mother, i just see a wedge that keeps her from truly accepting and loving her daughter. she has a lot of disdain for anyone who doesn't follow christ and this is very sad to me, but i cannot overlook the hypocrisy that i'm committing by being so condescending toward her christian beliefs. it is frustrating to me when i am placed in a situation where someone is having a discussion with me in which i must interact, but i can't say how i really feel or it will cause an argument. i don't lie, but if i were to be honest and say that i don't believe in the bible's god or heaven or accept christ as my lord and savior... well, i don't think i'd be very welcome in their home and this would cause a lot of suffering for my girlfriend. mostly i just nod along with a fake smile plastered on my face, mentally asserting my superiority. because i studied christianity and eventually found it to be illogical and rejected the ideas, it's hard to accept that other people still believe it. i feel the same way when people reject darwin and evolution based upon the bible. i just want to face-palm and roll my eyes. how condescending. i'm no better than them.
how can i not judge them? and how can i break this cycle?
so anyways, that was in the past and now i'm pretty unconcerned with christian dogma as whole except for my experiences with christians. many christians are very passionate about their faith and in the US, they frequently seem to assume that everyone is like-minded. this means that they are constantly asserting christian perspectives on the world which i no longer share. i wish i could say that these comments do not affect me, but i think it is more honest to say that regardless of what i may say to the person, i feel an internal "eye roll." simply put, i am judging them but i wish i could feel more accepting of their beliefs.
my biggest problem with this involves my girlfriend's mother. she's rather interesting to me because i guess you'd have to call her a "born again" christian. she was never raised particularly christian, but as a result of her second marriage, she became very invested in church. while she is accepting of me as her daughter's partner (because she can see that i treat her well and she is happy), she is not afraid to speak her mind on how it is still a sin. sometimes she'll offer helpful hints like, "you know, the sin isn't being gay, the sin is acting on it!" although i'm not sure how she could think this is helpful seeing as she knows we live together and share a bed. sometimes she'll just say things about how her daughter was, "almost perfect, except she's gay." and sometimes she'll just say to me, "why couldn't you have been a boy!" i don't think she cares how offensive or hurtful her comments are because she feels that it is right. she believes the bible is the literal word of god. of course she has suffered as a result of this belief as well, it's impossible to think that it doesn't hurt her to truly believe her daughter is going to hell. sometimes i just feel like i want to share my "good news" with her, but i know she won't accept it.
homosexuality is a topic that i am very passionate about and i am unaccustomed to holding my tongue when offended. her mother and i have gotten into it a few times on topics of gay pride parades and my best friend (who is a gay man), but my girlfriend has asked that i try not to speak my mind. she already knows from prior experience that it will get nowhere. but when we visit her, i frequently feel like she's just trying to shove this stuff down my throat. she knows about my interest in buddhism, but i never really talk about it. my girlfriend says that her mother puts on a show for me, acting a lot more "holy roller" than she does normally. i'm not sure why this would be, but she says it's pretty much the same way she acts in church. she's really not a bad person and i actually like her a great deal so long as we're not discussing religion. sometimes i forget how much of a bible thumper she is until i say something wrong and i feel like the fangs come out, lol. then i'm stuck backpedaling and trying to get into her good graces again, but on the inside i just feel like i'm beating my head against a wall. i try to find common ground with her, because i used to really love going to church when i was younger, but even this is difficult because she is southern baptist and i went to a non-denominational church which was super liberal and very accepting. she looks down on those types of christians as well.
as a result of all this, i find it really hard to stay compassionate when these topics come up. i try very hard not to let my real feelings show (i don't want to offend her), but i can't say that on the inside i'm not judging her. as far as christianity at large, i know that it has made a positive effect on a lot of people's lives and i can see the beauty in that... but in regards to her mother, i just see a wedge that keeps her from truly accepting and loving her daughter. she has a lot of disdain for anyone who doesn't follow christ and this is very sad to me, but i cannot overlook the hypocrisy that i'm committing by being so condescending toward her christian beliefs. it is frustrating to me when i am placed in a situation where someone is having a discussion with me in which i must interact, but i can't say how i really feel or it will cause an argument. i don't lie, but if i were to be honest and say that i don't believe in the bible's god or heaven or accept christ as my lord and savior... well, i don't think i'd be very welcome in their home and this would cause a lot of suffering for my girlfriend. mostly i just nod along with a fake smile plastered on my face, mentally asserting my superiority. because i studied christianity and eventually found it to be illogical and rejected the ideas, it's hard to accept that other people still believe it. i feel the same way when people reject darwin and evolution based upon the bible. i just want to face-palm and roll my eyes. how condescending. i'm no better than them.
how can i not judge them? and how can i break this cycle?
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Comments
Its sad that she has so much fear, no? Perhaps when you are seeing that wedge, you could hug her. Comfort the fear. If not with arms, with words.
amatt- this makes sense. i guess my real problem is simply that we don't agree. instead of focusing on the wedge and why i think it's wrong, i should just accept that it is there.
but i don't understand what i could say to her to comfort her. i once did so much research into the bible that i actually found a lot of reasons to refute that the bible even condemns homosexuality. it is now my opinion that it doesn't. but i know that she won't agree with me over her pastor so it would just be messy to even try. but i can't imagine what else might provide comfort to her when she still believes the bible condemns it.
One of the things you may want to think about is what part of the problem belongs to those around you, and what part of the problem belongs to you.
Now this may not apply to you at all! But I first came to a related realization when I participated in some multicultural workshops quite a few years ago. Although we were required to attend (a requirement of school administrators in our system), I actually enjoyed participating...very intriguing. I was one of the more silent people (and, BTW, I am White), but in one small-group discussion I asked one of the more vocal members, "Do you see yourself as a Black man, or a man who is Black? That brought a sarcastic remark from the person I had asked the question to. But one of the other Black men in the group said, "No, Vince is actually asking a very good question. It seems to me that you put your Blackness ahead of everything else in your character." The other guy interrupted, saying, "Naturally." The Black guy that understood my question said, "No, not 'naturally'. I am Black, but I see things first based on my humanity, and only sometimes through the lens of being a Black person."
I remember on the last Inauguration Day they showed footage of Jesse Jackson watching Obama give his Inaugural Address. I wondered if Jesse got it -- that he would never be president because he ran as "the Black candidate", while Obama ran as the candidate who just happened to be Black.
I think sometimes that we gay people (yes, note I said "we") also jump to looking at things through a perspective that puts our gayness ahead of our humanness. I'm a man who happens to be gay...not a gay man. Reverse emphasis. Most of the people I know are Christians (and I consider myself as having a shared Buddhist/Christian perspective), and I have rarely had a negative reaction from my Christian friends. Of course, some colleagues used to suspect I was gay, but they didn't KNOW I was gay.
So, perhaps it might be fruitful to think about from what perspective you are seeing others.
The only things I can think of are to be mindful of right speech, and lots and lots of metta meditation. Good luck.
but of course, when i am at a gay pride parade, i am actively identifying as a gay person because it's pretty hard to forget, lol.
but i appreciate your response and it is a very valid point. i'll have to think about it a bit though because while i think i am a human first, if someone is attacking something specifically about me, it's hard to divorce it from myself... if that makes sense.
you're probably right about the rest though. honestly, she might preach so much to me just BECAUSE she knows i am interested in buddhism. i think she assumes that her daughter is still just as christian as ever, but i might pose a challenge to her. she's known of her daughter's sexuality for probably almost 10 years now. my girlfriend got kicked out of her church and they sent her to gay reparation therapy and yadda yadda, but this was all a long time ago. i'm actually accepted a lot more than any of my girlfriend's previous partners, so she is growing. i still don't think she accepts it, but she's come to terms with the fact that she still loves her daughter and probably won't change her. she might outgrow this or she might not, it's hard to say.
what i'm most concerned about is my growing feelings of animosity toward her mother and the way that they effect both myself and my girlfriend. we've been together for almost four years now so i'm losing that desire to impress her mother at every turn and it seems to be replaced with a condescending attitude. if i can't change her views about it, i want to change my views about her because it's beginning to feel like a burden. naturally, i don't like getting upset every time we visit her family, but it just keeps happening.
Maybe doing compassion meditation on your gf's mother will help. Hopefully, others will have suggestions.
i think metta meditation would probably help. i think i haven't been being as compassionate toward her as i could be because of my perceived judgement from her. i heard somewhere that we learn more from our enemies (those that challenge us) than our friends, so i guess i should probably be thankful, huh?
> She's your 'family' (mother-in-law)
> She's got an issue with your sexuality
> The more you try to tackle her 'head-on', or even 'side-on', the worse the situation becomes
I think your best strategy is to:
> Stay grounded in yourself and focussed on what you can control, which is your own well-being, and of course your partners too (i notice you mentioned that her mother at least could see the happiness you bring her daughter, which is a positive you can build on)
> Basically, ignore her negative comments. To do anything else (ie, react to them), will only encourage her more. Just understand that she's a bit like a child unfortunately, she's simply not aware of the harm she may cause. And it's been shown that 'positive parenting' is the best strategy for coaching kids (and funnily enough, dogs too) - which means that it's better to focus on positive reinforcement when they do something good, rather than negative reinforcement when they do something bad.
> Perhaps just make a mental note of where 'the line' is for you, and if she crosses it, then it is time to calmly and firmly assert yourself. Being compassionate, patient and understanding doesn't have to mean being trodden on or bullied, and if she does cross that line (it sounds like she probably doesn't, but just in case) then you have every right to speak up, or take action such as leaving her company or whatever is appropriate (try not to overact, i know it's hard, but really it helps in the end). By the way, i would only see crossing the line as pretty serious stuff - anything that is just her talking about her Xtian views, hell and that rubbish can be laughed off pretty easily (at least internally, i wouldn't laugh in her face). I'm thinking more of physical actions or if she trieds to seriously intervene in your relationship.
Familys, eh? None are 'normal', in my experience.
Namaste
My mom and brother used to say things about God to me, knowing I am not a christian. At first I would debate with them, but noticed the more I attacked their view, the more they defended. Our time on this world has too much value to be spent on petty bickering. Rather, I said "I don't like when you say things like that. Please, out of respect for me, stop trying to change me." Or I simply left.
It took them awhile to learn be respectful of alternate views, but they did. Now, they often ask me for my view of things, and I have no problems talking about the good qualities of christianity, and how my heart and Jesus' are similar. I think today if my mom was throwing a 'wedge' I would tell her I was feeling attacked, then hug her and tell her I love her. She doesn't have to think my views are right or valid, but I have a right to be respected.
In your case, what does your girlfriend think? Does she just want you to get over it? Is she willing to help? Does she know your feelings get hurt? Why do you take it so personally?
With warmth,
Matt
maybe you are taking the difficulty in the relationship with your girlfriends mother too personally? If you can, then don't personally blame her for being narrowminded, because she is not consciously choosing to have these views. Also, don't personally blame yourself for feeling superior, because you are not consciously choosing this response. Maybe this way, you can be kind to her and to yourself, and that might help.
i think i take it personally for a few reasons: 1. because i believe that it is attitudes like this that contribute to the reason that we have such a high rate of gay teen suicide (something i take very personally) and 2. because i see how it hurts my girlfriend. her mother's opinion on gays has spread to her little brothers' (they are around 15 and 13), and this is very upsetting to me and my gf. they use 'fag' and 'gay' all the time and have a very low opinion of gay people in general. on one of our last visits, my gf found out that they were ashamed of her being gay, and she left very upset. i don't think it's an issue, but sometimes we've talked about "what if" one of her little brothers came out as gay and how horrible it would be for them. i guess i have trouble seeing it just as a "disagreement" sometimes. you never know when your offhand comments can deeply impact someone's life.
i remember one time when i was in high school, the topic of homosexuality came up in my sociology class. i know i've mentioned it before, but i dealt with a lot of thoughts of suicide and depression as a result of my sexuality, and when some of the kids in the class were comparing homosexuals to pedophiles and talking about how they shouldn't have rights because they're going to hell, i put my head down on my desk and pretended to go to sleep. in reality, it was because i couldn't keep myself from crying any longer. i'm not sure whether or not my teacher noticed this, but i do remember that he said, "okay, we're going to stop this discussion because we don't know who we might be offending." i felt eternally grateful to him for that. but the point is, i see homophobia as a seed with the potential to spread so much pain to others and it is upsetting to me. i think if people were more aware of this, they wouldn't do it.
my girlfriend just thinks i should let it go. she's dealt with them and their opinions for a long time, and i guess part of my problem is that i haven't. i'm used to the way that my family is, which is 100% supportive. i feel like homophobia is very similar to racism in that it is completely founded on ignorance, and i'm not used to not being able to talk freely and openly about feelings and opinions. i don't mean to make a mountain out of a mole hill, but i have long thought that it is part of my duty as a gay person to speak up for those who are too afraid to speak up for themselves. this is the only way i can foresee any sort of change happening. but obviously, i don't want to cause more suffering for my girlfriend. it's just difficult to balance my internal feelings.
i think i can let go her beliefs regarding god and christ, but it will take a lot more effort to not let her opinions on gays affect me, especially when i feel this way about it. but maybe the way i feel is wrong... i'm not sure.
@Vinlyn Very well said! I often forget I am a gay person. I see myself as person first, then gender, then sexuality. My girlfriend orders curve magazine (lesbian magazine), and I'll start reading it... then suddenly get disgusted and throw it down because of all the stereotyping and need to define what being lesbian means! I feel the same about gender, race, and religion. I really wish our culture didn't encourage these identifiers ahead of our humanity. There are generalizations within the gay community itself, and even in Buddhism! It stifles us all to live by a group definition.
Like zombiegirl says. When I am surrounded by people who are discussing religion or sexuality, I will suddenly become hyper aware of my own sentiments. (Maybe how a Vegan would feel in Ted Nugents presence, lol). My straight sister spent gay pride with us in San Fran, and never was I more comfortable... yet she constantly said "Oh my god, I feel like I'm the only straight person here. It's such a weird feeling". Lol, I assured her that I only feel that uncomfortable when I'm searching for a Valentines day card.
@zombiegirl I can't imagine being around someone who wants to get into a debate constantly. Perhaps you should just make those discussions a no-go zone. Especially if the other party is not actually interested in a respectful dialogue. If someone doesn't actually care about your views... you have little hope of influencing them. So trying desperately to find a way to make them care will only leave you frustrated, angry, or depressed. Like you, I remember kids in school comparing homosexuality to pedophilia, or insanity. My own family would say that lesbian's did it for attention or because they were molested by men. I can actually understand how some people can be so ignorant, because even though I believed in gay rights as a kid... I was still in denial about my sexuality. I honestly thought I couldn't be a lesbian, because lesbians were just victims of male violence/rape. (If I got a crush on a girl, I thought it was because we were just "soul friends", and I thought my ick* factor with guys was because I was a "late bloomer"). As far as gf's mom.... I can only give you this for-instance. My girlfriend's mother is like my own mother to me. She always treats us like children to be cared for. She made me an owl quilt, sends me soup when I'm sick, has me work with her in the garden, or just calls to chat. I am closer to her than my own mother. Yet, she is also very Catholic. One time when my gf needed an ultra sound for gall-bladder, they noticed larger than average ovaries. So my gf's' mom said "Well that explains a lot. When she gets those fixed she probably won't be gay anymore". It really hurt both of us. I love her to pieces and felt very betrayed by this statement. However, when I really judge her compassion, I can count numerous acts of love. She has done things for me that my own mother has never done, and she tells other people that I am her daughter. Just recently she started to introduce me as her daughter's gf. I have to remember that our relationship is very trying for her. She loves me.. but right now, there is a small part of her that wishes "this whole gay situation" could be different. She has spent a whole lifetime being conservative, and having conservative friends. Now she has to awkwardly explain my presence to her friends and family when asked. She is also very scared that we won't have children. Her religious convictions are completely shook up. When I accepted my sexuality it was challenging, awkward, and embarrassing on a personal level, but I had the freedom to choose when to make it public. My gf's mom didn't have that choice, freedom to delay, or even preconception that she may have a gay daughter. Kind of like being pushed into water and told to swim. I think you should practice some super patience, forgiveness and understanding with your gf's mom. Try to count all the ways she has progressed, or shown you guys love. You need to give her lot's of time... but every time you challenge her views or correct her before she is ready to change... then you set your relationship back. You also become a hypocrite if you insult her religion- and I have made this mistake at times with my gf's mom... the results were never good. The key to exchanging ideas is timing and tact. Any progress is good progress. Maybe at this stage it's just making her see you as kind human, before lesbian-daughter-stealing-pagan, lol.
As far as the brother situation... with the words "fag". Well, my sister's husband once said something about "bull dykes" in reference to female soldiers on facebook. So I quoted the offensive line and inserted a sad face, then said "please remember that I'm your wife's sister, and I can see her facebook". He apologized pretty quickly... but only because I have met with him a couple of times and he has grown to like me (while also completely forgetting that I am gay). So... befriend and impress the kids, so that they eventually see you in your true light. Hopefully once a relationship is built... they will not wish to hurt you, and you will have of an effect when you correct their usage of "fag" and "gay". Unlike your gf, you were not raised by that family, so I think you have more hope for them then she does. You are not yet willing to accept a poor relationship. Just remember that there are many groups of people who are subjected to ignorant criticism, jokes, or generalizations. These groups always overcome with compassion, humor and patience.
thank you for your advice. very practical and helpful!
malachy, thank you for your very long reply to my thread
i think above all, this thread has taught me to have a lot more compassion for my gf's mother. i'd never put much thought into how her beliefs might cause herself to suffer to as well, but it seems impossible that it wouldn't. naturally, no one wants to believe their child is going to hell. this must be very hard for her as well.
compassion, humor and patience... WORD.
I've been reading a Zen book on anger called "The Cow in the Parking Lot", and there is a chapter on handling others' anger.
I know that this is a difficult subject to deal with, as I am gay with Christian parents, but with time I am learning that just because criticism is given to me doesn't mean that I have to take it on or accept it. Easier said than done I know. Perhaps I am saying this to myself as I am commenting on your issue. I hope that you find some peace with this subject.