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More on War Criminals, Justice, and Compassion
compassionate_warrior
Veteran
Yesterday, Nazi prison guard and accused war criminal John Demjanjuk, a US citizen, was found guilty of taking part in the murder of 28,000 people in his role as guard at the Sobibor concentration camp in Poland in 1943. Mr Demjanjuk is now 91, living in a nursing home in Germany after being extradited from the US for trial in Germany, and endured the trial in a bed set up near the judge. He travelled to and from the courtroom in a wheelchair. Though the accused's son protested that there was no proof his father had harmed anyone, the judge said that "it was impossible for anyone to have worked at Sobibor and not be part of the Nazi death machinery."
Mr. Demjanjuk was born in Ukraine and initially fought on the Soviet side in the war. After being captured by the Nazis and offered work as a prison camp guard, he accepted. The judge said there were many Ukrainians in a similar position who managed to escape. Mr. Demjanjuk chose to stay and accept the job. Even though he ranked low in the camp hierarchy, victims said that did not matter. "He is a very small fish", said the son of a woman who was killed at Sobibor. "But whether you are a whale or a sardine, someone who went wrong this way should be punished." The judge sentenced Mr. Demjanjuk to 5 years in prison (he has already served time in Israel after being tried there earlier in life, and eventually released as a case of mistaken identity), saying he took into account Mr. Demjanjuk's age and time served in Israel.
For more info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk and
www.businessweek.com/news/2011-05-12/demjanjuk-nazi-trial-verdict-may-enter-new-legal-territory-.html
What do members think about bringing to trial an ailing, frail 91-year-old man for crimes, or complicity in crimes, committed almost 60 years earlier? Is this a case, as HHDL said about Bin Laden, of compassion for the perpetrator, but justice for the crime/s committed? Is this about closure for the victims and their descendants, about justice, punishment, all of the above? Should he have been allowed to live out his life in peace, in the US where he'd made his home after the war? Or does the commission (or aiding and abetting) of war atrocities demand justice no matter what the guilty party's state of health or mind? Does punishing a 91-year-old already suffering ill health make sense? Is there any room for compassion for the perp in a case like this? Compassion for the survivors, and relatives of the victims? Let the opinions fly.
Mr. Demjanjuk was born in Ukraine and initially fought on the Soviet side in the war. After being captured by the Nazis and offered work as a prison camp guard, he accepted. The judge said there were many Ukrainians in a similar position who managed to escape. Mr. Demjanjuk chose to stay and accept the job. Even though he ranked low in the camp hierarchy, victims said that did not matter. "He is a very small fish", said the son of a woman who was killed at Sobibor. "But whether you are a whale or a sardine, someone who went wrong this way should be punished." The judge sentenced Mr. Demjanjuk to 5 years in prison (he has already served time in Israel after being tried there earlier in life, and eventually released as a case of mistaken identity), saying he took into account Mr. Demjanjuk's age and time served in Israel.
For more info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk and
www.businessweek.com/news/2011-05-12/demjanjuk-nazi-trial-verdict-may-enter-new-legal-territory-.html
What do members think about bringing to trial an ailing, frail 91-year-old man for crimes, or complicity in crimes, committed almost 60 years earlier? Is this a case, as HHDL said about Bin Laden, of compassion for the perpetrator, but justice for the crime/s committed? Is this about closure for the victims and their descendants, about justice, punishment, all of the above? Should he have been allowed to live out his life in peace, in the US where he'd made his home after the war? Or does the commission (or aiding and abetting) of war atrocities demand justice no matter what the guilty party's state of health or mind? Does punishing a 91-year-old already suffering ill health make sense? Is there any room for compassion for the perp in a case like this? Compassion for the survivors, and relatives of the victims? Let the opinions fly.
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Comments
HHDL's so called compassion is just condescending & exalting himself as a "saint".
Has HHDL ever shown any empathy towards & understanding of Chinese history & the Western atrocities committed towards them which influenced them to invade Tibet to protect their national borders during a US lead Cold War?
Enlightened Buddhists examine causes & conditions rather than just pretend they are saints by showing "compassion" to who they regard as "sinners".
How is "punishment" compassion for survivors & relatives? Because they feel revenge?
WW1 and WW2 were simply the colonist wars of Western colonists, including the Japanese immitating Western development & behaviour.
People should see the reality of these things and let them go.
The war ended 65 years ago. People should forgive & forget.
The wars were from the same beliefs that lead to slavery in America and the genocide of the American native people.
Yet we do not bring Americans to trial for their crimes against humanity or rant on like HHDL does about Europeans invading the Americas like the Chinese invaded Tibet.
The Chinese invaded Tibet to protect themselves from American foreign policy. Today, Americans have their military parked next door Afganistan, Iraq, ex-Soviet states and looking at Iran & Pakistan
Buddhist looks at the big picture rather than get caught up in self-cherishing.
If HHDL really cared & was free of self-cherishing propaganda, he would explain Chinese history as it is.
But instead, HHDL is perpetuating "national" or "self" myths, that perpetuate division & wars.
There is or was a movement among African Americans for reparations, though. No trials (slavery died out over 150 years ago, before war crimes tribunals and the like were invented), but demands for reparations.
:thumbsup:
Why do Americans support Tibet so much, because the invaders were communist?
A lady in this video did not know the USA was in the Vietnam War.
The Chinese invaded Tibet for the same reason they took over Xinjiang: they've always wanted to control the western borderlands.
Back to topic.
b@eze
Bucky
is strong/ON TOPIC.
b@eze
Bucky
c_w: perhaps u might sudy some history and international affairs (the scholarship here is vast and strong)
New thread's fine with me though too.
Warmly
There are traditionally some reasons which – in theory – justify punishment.
- preventing the perpetrator from doing the same thing again (special prevention)
- preventing others from doing such things (general prevention)
- simple revenge (the state takes revenge out of the hands of victims and relatives as an alternative for anarchy)
In the case of an old man on trial, reason number two and three are still valid.
Now, the big questions about this is if it actually works like that in real life.
One could argue that people don’t return from penal institutions being a better person.
Also many crimes are committed without consideration for the possible punishment.
For instance crimes which are related to love and betrayal (let’s say crimes of passion) are such emotional events that the threat of punishment does not make any difference.
At the other hand, all computer games on “prisoner dilemma” type of situations indicate that the way to achieve social responsible behavior is applying “tit for tat” in some form.
So in some situations, a certain degree of punishment apparently does work.
War is such a disrupting thing to society that it would be the exception when war-crimes do not happen.
Individuals can hardly be blamed when mechanisms which keep society working fall apart.
The “blaming‘ side to punishment is really the problematic thing.
What can people do about the way their brain works in certain conditions?
I understand some type of brains simply do not have the application “consciousness” installed. Who is to blame for that?
Do you have any knowedge of what the British did in China and then Japan?
My impressiom of history is China was a civilised culture that was never imperialist, unlike other conquering empire nations, and closed itself off to the world.
Then the British came and then the Japanese came.
Do you have any knowedge of what the British did in China and then Japan?
Can you imagine any cause for the again independent Communist China invading Tibet during the post WW2 geo-politic Cold War environment?
Can you imagine any cause for why political forces chose to become Communist?
:-/
Enlightened Buddhists view the big picture of war rather than take allegiences with petty matters that reinforce the "us good" "them bad" stereotype & propaganda.
WW1 and WW2 were part of a colonialist economic agenda, started by the British, which still continues today in places such as Iraq and Libya, where oil and maintaining the trade of oil in US currency is at stake.
The war trial is more Jewish-Israeli propaganda to cover up the equally violent Jewish state.
Enlightened Buddhists try to view to bigger picture & shun all violence.
It is a crazy concept, but it fits some basic wiring in our brain.
This wiring probably was established when – being social primates – we would beat up the monkey who stole the banana. It kind of worked, but only in those conditions.
It doesn’t mean such a thing as “justice” exists in our universe.
Also it isn’t necessarily the right approach to managing a complex modern society.
You only need to wear military apparel, and you are in almost every sense epitomising the mentality which creates conflict on a bigger scale.
If people wish to report inflammatory or off-topic posts, the first thing they should do is desist from contributing and retaliating. A poster cannot continuously flag comments, but them keep responding to them and contributing to the thread's meanderings.
I could of course now, just close the thread, but that seems to put people's backs up.
So, what would you have a Moderator do, exactly...?
Secondly, although the first post mentions a specific incident, the thread title, being unspecific - makes this discussion legitimately general.
If people are to adhere to a specific topic, make the topic specific.
I see nothing off-topic.
In fact, as far as I can see, the first person to swing the thread Off-topic was the OP, with the comment regarding African American repatriations.
Behave.
Carry on.