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After the 4 noble truths and 8 fold path. What are the main practices as a ZEN LAY BUDDHIST?

N2BN2B
edited May 2011 in Sanghas
I say LAY because im talking about the average person going to work, raising a family etc etc..
What practices makes you a Zen Buddhist?
Of course all Buddhists follow the 8 fold path and Meditate..

But is there more to it??
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Comments

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    i follow korean zen. in korean zen they emphasize "not-knowing" mind and when doing something "just doing it".

    it all depends on the person really. if your mind is busy usually you can work with a mantra to calm it down.
    then move onto keeping "not-knowing" mind by keeping a big question like "who am i?".

    see you can't really answer that question because you don't know. so there is not knowing mind. in korean zen we ask ourselves that question as many times as we can throughout the day and in meditation. we feel what it is like to not know from the neck down in our bodies and we just abide in the not knowing.

    this not knowing directly cuts off thinking mind and allows us to abide in our original nature. the more and more we do this the more and more potential we have in realizing our buddha nature.

    it's a very simple technique. but the mind will always look for an answer. there really is no answer other than the existential answer one gets when they are ripe. so keep this not knowing mind, cut ego and realize your true nature.

    if you're interested check out Seung Sahn Sunim. he has some good books or you can google his name and find some teachings.

    this is only korean zen though. other zen practices emphasize different things.

    soto zen deals with just sitting and that sitting alone is your buddha nature. one must realize that.
    where rinzai zen focuses on koan work. similar to the "not knowing" mind. you work with a puzzle that one cannot intellectually solve, but must come into an existential realization of the koan.

    of course you have the chanting, bowing, long hours of meditations and sometimes the sesshins.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    hi

    i am not sure Zen can offer much for the lay buddhist

    amongst all the Buddhist schools, only the Pali scriptures can offer direct & complete teachings for the lay buddhist

    the term "Mahayana" is a misnomer. The Mahayana created the 'Great Vehicle' by introducing diety worship & other ritualistic superstitions into Buddhism to opiate the masses but at the same time culling the practical teachings of the Buddha specifically for laypeople

    the Buddha's teachings for laypeople found in the Pali are extensive & complete. below are just three mere examples from the Buddha, the 3rd being the most extensive & essential:

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.062.than.html
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.055.than.html
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html

    Also, find S 55.7 Veludvareyya Sutta The Golden Rule/How to practice the 5 Precepts as this link:

    http://sites.google.com/site/dharmafarer2/sam.yuttanikayya

    the link below is a compilation of & commentary on most of the Buddha's lay teachings. this is translated from the Thai and the language may sound a bit pompous so try to read it with an awakened mind to comprehend the essence:

    http://www.budsir.org/Contents.html

    all the best

    :)

  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    Cheers DD, nice links :)
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    You're welcome. Its all there.

    :)
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    also, the Maha-mangala Sutta is poetic verse on the layman's path

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.04.piya.html
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    I respectfully, albiet strongly, disagree with your post DD.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    Fine :) If you can post some lay teachings about work, raising a family, etc, from other Buddhist schools then I would be pleased to learn about them

  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    I'm not going to be pulled into a debate where I am forced to defend the validity of my beliefs. Zen can be practiced by laypeople. I have nothing against the pali sutras and use their advice in my practice as well.
  • Thanks all who answered :-)
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    Zen can be practiced by laypeople.
    Sure. But my impression of the opening post was it was asking "does Buddhism offer more than just meditation for the lay person?". Zen offers meditation but what else?

    :confused:
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    Zen can be practiced by laypeople.
    Sure. But my impression of the opening post was it was asking "does Buddhism offer more than just meditation for the lay person?". Zen offers meditation but what else?

    :confused:
    precepts. the three jewels. method, support, and love.

    what else you need bro?

  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    The rough conclusion I am at now is for laypeople what we have is teachings directly from suttas and commentaries about the layman's path. Then there are teachers from the Mahayana who give methods for lay people for that school.

    For me, even though I took refuge in the Chinese Mahayana, there are no teachers where I live and so I would be practicing the eightfold path and studying what the Buddha taught for laypeople.

    Thanks for the links.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    precepts. the three jewels. method, support, and love.

    what else you need bro?
    alot more, i assure you

    :)

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    precepts. the three jewels. method, support, and love.

    what else you need bro?
    alot more, i assure you

    :)

    like what bro? can you be more vague?

    enlighten me bro.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    read the links :)

    you know, "i" was once also a non-duality "zen" buddhist, until i was required to counsel people

    seriously

    when this occurred, i released how little i understood or saw

    when one's mind is stuck in non-duality, it cannot help people when they ask for counselling about relationships, family problems, etc

    these people are not interested in the rhetoric about "there is no self", etc

    non-duality is about "no self", "no other", "no good", "no bad" but living in the world of worldly society is all about defining duality, responsibilities, boundaries, relationship roles, etc

    luckily, i found the Pali suttas and all the answers are there

    i killed the "Zen master" and found the real Buddha

    i killed being "blinded by the light" of non-duality

    often the mind's illumination is so bright, it is like looking into the sun

    regards

    :)
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    read the links :)

    you know, "i" was once also a non-duality "zen" buddhist, until i was required to counsel people

    seriously

    when this occurred, i released how little i understood or saw

    when one's mind is stuck in non-duality, it cannot help people when they ask for counselling about relationships, family problems, etc

    these people are not interested in the rhetoric about "there is no self", etc

    non-duality is about "no self", "no other", "no good", "no bad" but living in the world of worldly society is all about defining duality, responsibilities, boundaries, relationship roles, etc

    luckily, i found the Pali suttas and all the answers are there

    :)
    glad it worked out for you bro.
    see that is your personal experience.
    one's own experience doesn't apply to another.

    some people might not be attach towards non-duality.
    and i do agree non-duality at times is very heartless and stale.

    that is why compassion and action is emphasized in different traditions.
    sure one can get stuck in their non-duality, but one should also learn how emptiness functions in this world.

    just cause you had a bad experience with zen or other traditions doesn't mean we all will.
    and it doesn't mean one is more valid or another. it just means that depending on the person and circumstance one may benefit more than another. but there is no way we can know that.


    glad you found your freedom bro
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    @N2B I highly recommend "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" as a good starting point.
    amongst all the Buddhist schools, only the Pali scriptures can offer direct & complete teachings for the lay buddhist
    Phrasing your opinions as fact is damned annoying.

  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    Non-duality is not something that I use to help those I love, particularly those who have little understanding of Buddhist doctrine and belief. First and foremost, zen is a mahayana tradition, and as such focuses very highly on promoting compassion, patience, kindness, determination, empathy, and wisdom.

    The Boddhisattva cannot hope to convey skillful means in order to aid sentient life if he/she cannot communicate the necessity and purpose of cultivating virtuous behavior, thoughts, and speech. I think that you generalizing zen practice and belief based on your own experiences is a detrement to others who may find solace in the history and teachings of such a rich and affluent tradition.
  • one's own experience doesn't apply to another.
    sure

    but this is a discussing forum, so we clarifying our position

    all thanks for your kind words

    :)

  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    ...is a detrement to others who may find solace in the history and teachings of such a rich and affluent tradition.
    Just more rhetoric to me and diverging from the thread topic

    regards :)

  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    I had to diverge from the thread topic in order to respond to your post. If you mean by rhetoric that my words lack sincerity, you are mistaken.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    by "rhetoric", i mean using words such as "compassion, patience, kindness, determination, empathy and wisdom" in a very broad & sentimental way

    when a person asks: "going to work, raising a family, etc", the skills & understanding required are more specific than the broad words you are using

    but sure, compassion, patience, kindness, determination, empathy, wisdom are certainly necessary

    but what is the exact "wisdom" or "empathy" you are referring to?

    if you read this link, you may begin to develop "empathy" towards my views because I am referring to these kinds of perspectives & skilful means

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html

    this dhammas at the link are not as "lofty" as those you mentioned

    :coffee:
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    the thing is you cannot have a framework or even knowledge on what you should do in a certain situation.
    i mean you can and it can be helpful but at the same time it might not be correct function.

    zen teaches that correct function is when we think about others first. in that sense we can use all the range of human experience for others first. so for example greed can even be used for the help of others. even anger at times can be used for the help of others.

    but it is important to keep moment to moment clear mind. it's from this clear mind, correct function can arise.
    when we don't have clear mind we only think about ourselves, thus it is incorrect function.

    the point is to not have a theory or framework to live your life. the point is to keep clear mind moment to moment and in the situation the correct function will always arise. help others. if someone is hungry, feed them. if someone is suffering, help them. it's as simple as that, no thinking involved. unless thinking is necessary, then that will arise as well.

    zen teaches how to get clear mind or attain buddha nature. and from there zen teaches how this buddha nature functions automatically to help others using the full range of human expressions.

    whatever works bro
  • the thing is you cannot have a framework or even knowledge on what you should do in a certain situation...
    sure, no formula is perfect

    but take the basic question of should a parent try to teach their children or should children simply be allowed to learn from their own experiences?

    naturally, to be able to teach or impart anything requires a strong foundation of love & trust

    but to answer the question, the Buddha taught a parent should try to teach or guide their children to what is good and away from what is harmful

    regards

    :)

  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    I have to be broad in discussing a broad topic because the advice given is dependent upon the situation at hand. You asked what zen provides besides teaching in meditation, which is a BROAD question.

    If someone asked, "How should I raise my son?"
    The question is too broad. A broad answer may be, "be patient and kind."

    If someone asked, "How should I help my son be a good provider for his wife?"
    This question is more specific. A specific answer may be, "teach him how to find a gainful livelihood, and impress upon him the importance of financial responsibility when managing a household."
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited May 2011
    Back to topic people. Seriously. You guys completely miss each other's lines of thought, and if every thread I go to seems to be you guys bickering I'm going to have to be more firm.

    Understand? (you two know who you are)
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    we are talking about the original topic. we're just doing it dialectically.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited May 2011
    Yeah, right. ;) If you don't have a response to the OP to answer their question and help them, take it to PMs.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited May 2011
    N2B, the lay practice consists of attending Buddhist services, meditation of course, perhaps attending the Buddhist altar at home, some koan work if you're into that sort of thing, and practicing compassion and clear mind in our everyday lives. The services usually consist of a dharma talk, meditation sessions, and interviews with the Teacher about the koans, again depending on the particular school. Korean zen has chanting and prostrations along with sitting meditation in some cases.

  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    If someone asked, "How should I help my son be a good provider for his wife?" This question is more specific. A specific answer may be, "teach him how to find a gainful livelihood, and impress upon him the importance of financial responsibility when managing a household."
    Where is that found in Zen?

    :confused:
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    @N2B I highly recommend "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" as a good starting point.
    Where does this book discuss about the average person going to work, raising a family etc ?

    :confused:
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    edited May 2011
    You do realize that although the Theravada tradition denies the validity of the Mahayana sutras, that Mahayana does not do the same for the Pali sutras? I consider myself a zen practitioner because I practice zazen and can relate to the mind-only philosophy explained by the Lankavatara. I also adhere to mahayana beliefs concerning prajnaparamita, tathagatagharba, and the boddhisattva path. However, I still read the Dhammapada and many other pali sources for insight and advice on how to lead a virtuous life.
  • My experience with Zen is, that it could be damaging to my daily work as a student. An empty mind - close to Buddhahood as it may be - is not ideal for a normal life. My personal prejudice is, that people love Zen for the same reasons they love(d?) Feng Shui - it sounds cool and gives the impression of "clean, fresh, undiluted". Which of course it is. Just be careful - once you go "Buddha" you won't come back :)
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited May 2011
    You do realize that...
    What does this have to do with the topic?

    :confused:
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    According to zen philophy, doing your work as a student is part of practice when performed mindfully. Study is an important part of improving oneself.

    Before enlightenment, carry water and chop wood.
    After enlightenment, carry water and chop wood.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    Yes please everyone try to stay on-topic. This thread is a question about what the main practices of Zen are for a lay Buddhist, so please direct your comments toward the goal of answering the question for the OP. Thank you.
  • I would call that 'normal' practice.. the problem with 'empty mind' is, that studies require the opposite.. So I rather take the 'long' path :)
  • ShutokuShutoku Veteran
    Regarding Zen teachings for everyday life, including relationships and so on, I think Thich Nhat Hanh's books are a good resource.


  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    @Shutoku
    Do you have some books you would recommend by Thay? I am reading "Understanding the Mind" right now and its a little dry.
  • Lazy_eyeLazy_eye Veteran
    Hi Talisman,

    Thay's "The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching" might not be a bad place to start.

    Much of East Asian Buddhism (China, Taiwan, Korea, Vietnam) follows a direction known as "humanistic Buddhism". It's very much concerned with lay practice and the focus is on applying the bodhisattva path to daily life and to the problems we see around us. Thay's "Engaged Buddhism" is basically the same thing. Another notable figure is Sheng Yen -- you might find his books of interest also.

    Mostly based in the Zen/Ch'an tradition, specifically Linji if I remember correctly.

    Lay practice in this tradition generally emphasizes cultivation of Buddhist ethics, the paramitas, practicing compassionate action, and development of insight together with bodhicitta.

  • edited May 2011
    I have just about finished "Transformation and Healing: Sutra on the Four Establishments" by Thay. I really have enjoyed his take on the sutra and is one of the first non intro to Buddhism type book. I quite liked the quote you gave Talisman. I will probably be reminded of that later today when I am washing dishes!
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    idk from my own experience i feel after a good zazen session in the morning i can study a lot better. in a way i retain more information and i can focus better while taking exams or even when listening to a lecture. meditation has brought many benefits in that sense.

    having a clear mind or empty mind just means you reflect what is in front of you. that is all. it does not mean you are mentally dull or stupid. your mind functions very clearly. if you need to remember a certain piece of information in the situation at hand, you will be able to remember such information. if you need to do something, you just do it.

    as an artist i do a lot of gesture drawings of nude models in various poses. the idea of a gesture drawing is to get the essence of the pose in a manner of about 30 seconds to a minute. when i started to do this i over thought and analyzed the model and this basically took too much time and the model would switch poses. not only that the drawing was still and mechanical. with experience i learned that if i just trusted my eyes and hands and just intuitively run with my drawing it was more fluid and accurate. clear mind or empty mind is the same idea.

    lol these are some thing we can gain from all traditions but the emphasis in zen is to realize your true nature.
    also reap the benefits of clear mind.
  • I have that experience with anapanasati - the better I become at focusing and concentrating on the boring breath the better I become at keeping focus on reading..
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    I have that experience with anapanasati - the better I become at focusing and concentrating on the boring breath the better I become at keeping focus on reading..
    In my case, my Zen meditation helped me tremendously in my college days. Not the meditation so much, although it's a great stress releaver when cramming or facing that exam tomorrow. The mental training of focusing on the present moment meant I actually began paying attention during lectures and classes.

    Also, not injuring my mind with alcohol when I needed it the most helped.
  • Every Buddhist tradition is equally geared to lay and monastic practice. For one thing most of the centers depend on their lay students for the donations and such. I would strongly recommend to find a well established Zen practice where they will be able to guide you in your lay practice. Here's a quote on the subject from http://mro.org/zmm/training/laypractice.php:
    In coming from the East to the West, Buddhism is undergoing a revolution. One aspect of the current transformation is the growing visibility and strength of lay practice.

    Lay practitioners have always been a vital part of Mahayana Buddhism. The history of lay practice goes all the way back to the time of the Buddha and the great lay practitioner Vimalakirti. Vimalakirti was said to be as realized as the Buddha. Buddha himself recognized Vimalakirti as being an enlightened teacher. It was during the times of Vimalakirti that the term “white-robed one” began to be used. White robes were worn by lay practitioners. With Vimalakirti, a precedent was set and the tradition of lay practice continued from that period on, throughout the history of Indian Buddhism, with many eminent lay teachers emerging. It continued into China, where lay practice was exemplified by the P’ang family. Layman P’ang, his wife, and their daughter were all realized Zen practitioners.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited May 2011
    The Ten Grave Precepts of Zen

    Most people first take the first five, and then after a while take the next five. Simply following the precepts, is itself, an important practice.

    1. Not to kill but to nurture life.

    2. Not to steal but to receive what is offered as a gift.

    3. Not to misuse sexuality but to be caring and faithful in intimate relationships.

    4. Not to lie but to be truthful.

    5. Not to intoxicate with substances or doctrines but to promote clarity and awareness.

    6. Not to speak of others' faults but to speak out of loving-kindness.

    7. Not to praise self at the expense of others but to be modest.

    8. Not to be possessive of anything but to be generous.

    9. Not to harbor anger but to forgive.

    10. Not to do anything to diminish the Triple Treasure but to support and nurture it.

    But of course, all those things are included in the 8 fold path already

    Other practices are Koan Practice, under the guidance of a teacher, which is specific to Zen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan

    And of course formal sitting meditation, a couple of different kinds. (mantras, mindfulness of breathing and also shikantaza), walking meditation, chanting meditation, as well a mindfulness meditation throughout daily activities.


  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited May 2011
    I would call that 'normal' practice.. the problem with 'empty mind' is, that studies require the opposite.. So I rather take the 'long' path :)
    The thing that people do not realize if that the mind can be filled with studies, as it should be when you have to study, but empty at the same time. If "studies" are correctly seen as empty, then having studies in your mind means your mind is still empty, even though it has studies in it. The "empty mind" of Zen means nothing other than studies itself. But of course, that is only when you actually have studying to do. My opinion. :)
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    it only reflects =]
  • N2B- may I suggest "Awake at Work" by Michael Carroll and "Nothing Special" by Charlotte Joko Beck. I have found both to be very helpful in my everyday life.
  • @seeker242

    Interesting way to see it :)
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