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As for eating meat....
While I'm sure vegetarianism has been discussed here endlessly, I'm not quite sure WHY it should apply. Doesn't the whole 'Circle of Life' thing come into play here? I understand not wanting to cause suffering to the animals we eat, and I swore off of chicken once I saw how inhumanely they were treated, but it seems to me that humans have been eating meat as long as there have been humans. So the cows feed us, we feed the worms, the worms feed the soil, the soil grows the grass...
So I wonder if in the end, it's just part of being a living being or are we supposed to rise above what nature intended? I mean, we all feed on death; even Vegans.
So I wonder if in the end, it's just part of being a living being or are we supposed to rise above what nature intended? I mean, we all feed on death; even Vegans.
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Comments
we get so many.
Please - could you do a search first?
The list of them is endless, as are the arguments, debates, discussions and sometimes, downright hostile engagements.
I can't keep shutting threads. It's not fair.
but please - do a search.....
Speaking from experience as a moderator on other forums; to expect for there to be no repetition of threads is not realistic and a futile exercise at best. It's going to happen, so please have patience with us new people. In a Buddhist forum, doubly so. All you're going to do is alienate the very people you are trying to help. Honestly, what difference does it make if it's been brought up a thousand times as long as the conversation remains respectful? After a while the veteran members will simply ignore those threads and it gives the people who really want to help a chance to contribute.
Namaste'
Kevin
Every person has a different opinion, and I would never presume to speak for anybody else.
That said, I would say that re-birth and vegetarianism must feature as the two most highly discussed topics in Buddhism.
Two topics to which there is absolutely no definitive black-and-white response.
Lastly - if you have comments about Moderator contributions, I would respectfully request you to do so via PM.
A lot more efficient, a darn sight less hostile, and more likely to effect a reasonable response.
Have you ever considered a forum in itself for Vegetarianism?
(It's a "health" article FYI)
Re: OP
@kdryan We have to make choices. Educate yourseslf and then make yours.
Best wishes
We've had a huge influx of new members in the last months. We keep telling them "been there, done that" when they post topics that have been run into the ground in the past, long before they joined. There's an element of unfairness there, I think. If the new members can't start threads on their topics of interest, why join? How welcome do they feel when the rest of us tell them their topic has been done to death, just look it up on the old threads? Astonishingly enough, the two threads on rebirth posted by newbies the last few weeks actually covered new ground, and were surprisingly informative, interesting, and pleasant! Conflict-free rebirth discussion--that's gotta be a first for NB!
To his/her credit, kdryan's OP wasn't the usual broad question, "Do Buddhists Eat Meat". S/he was more specific, zeroing in from the start on the more practical or "ecological" you might say, side of the issue. I give him/her credit for that. Bored as some of us may be with this question, could we manage to muster a little tolerance on behalf of the newb? There are other newbs who haven't participated in this discussion before. Can't we let the newbs have their moment, or their day? IDK, I just thought I'd raise that point.
To answer your Q, ryan, before the thread gets closed, I do think the idea behind vegetarianism is to rise above what nature intended. Buddhism, the precepts, are a discipline intended to train the mind toward spiritual values and practices. And as you experienced in your chicken episode, it's about compassion for the animals. But plenty of people from traditionally Buddhist societies eat meat without qualms. There's no clear rule about it, though some interpret the first precept as supporting vegetarianism, because by eating meat, and creating a demand for meat, we indirectly cause killing. As you'll see when you review the old threads (please do), these arguments can go round and round. And sooner or later someone raises the point that plants are killed to feed vegetarians. But plants aren't classified as sentient beings (we've been round and round on that one, too), so from a Buddhist perspective, killing plants is ok. But worms and bugs are killed when farming vegetables and legumes. So the only guilt-free food is fruit, and people (even in the West) have lived healthfully for years as fruitarians, it's do-able. But few want to do it. Even our die-hard vegetarians on the forum dismiss fruitarianism.
So there's pages of vegetarianism threads in a nutshell. Welcome, kd.
If really old -- say 5 years or older -- perhaps they should be deleted. Just another approach.
Also, the search feature on the site doesn't work very well. The best way to look up older threads, kdryan, and others, is via Google. Ask SherabDorje--he's the pro at that.
There's another thing to think about. If the influx of new members keeps up this pace, pretty soon the old-timers will be vastly out-numbered. So then what?
But I will tell you, that of the various Buddhist forums I've visited, this is -- at least in my humble view -- the best. It is quite open, generally the mods do a fair job in helping maintain the openness of the site, and most of us participants are pretty even-handed. Various viewpoints are tolerated and even welcomed. It rarely gets tense. It's a good place with good people.
But if you think about it, humans rise above what nature intended all the time. But when it comes to vegetarianism, it's in a good way. (Nature didn't intend urbanization, industrial pollution, etc. ) There's also the argument that livestock is an inefficient use of land in a rapidly shrinking world land-base. Frances Moore Lappe wrote a book about that, "Diet For a Small Planet". It's an interesting read, even if you're not vegetarian.
If anyone reads the news lately, maybe over the last few years there are frequent (well not enough but enough to be spotted) reports of global food shortages. It seems to be spreading.
I think those in the poorer countries unfortunately experience the effects first hand first and when there is no longer food on the table, or people can n longer to afford to feed their loved ones/themself, then there will be more trouble.
For the purposes of sustainability, ie just from a pure intellect scientific even cold calculation view, well / please consider.
For the other points ie from a humane point of view, and from the recognition of how animals are also similar to us, well that's an entirely different topic.
We have choices, and we make them. And I think at the end of the day, we may have to own them all.
Best wishes,
Abu
Have you tried using the search feature? It's so simple, with such limited results, it's nearly useless. It only goes back 2 pages of individual posts and then that's it. Which is maybe 1 month of posts, when there are so many more going back a long time. Those other ones simply don't show up in the results. A search of "vegetarian" using the sites search feature brings up a total of 12 threads and almost 1/2 of them are not even related to the topic and I KNOW that we have had way more than 6 threads on this topic.
I just learned of this because I tried a search for a rebirth thread and got like 6 results! :eek: I had a friend who asked "what is reborn" so I figured I would just send them a link to one of the good threads here, but they simply don't come up in the search. The ones that do are less than a month old. Sorry for going off topic.
@kdryan To address the OP's question, For myself, it's a matter of simple compassion for those who suffer. The whole 'Circle of Life' thing does come into play here and many people choses to live in a way that causes the least amount of suffering possible. You can't completely stop death and suffering precisely because of the circle of life thing, but it can be minimized.
However, some people, not necessarily here on this forum, try to assert that it's good or ok because it's a natural thing so it really does not matter. Which is really not a valid argument since human beings have also been killing each other since humans have came into existence too. It is quite natural for human beings to kill other human beings. That is certainly not a good thing, but it is quite natural according to our history.
No matter what you do, you will always kill something that is living. Are plants really that different from animals? Is there a hierarchy to what is considered "more living". Death is the great equalizer and it sweeps all forms away without bias.
Be thankful that you can even eat something. When you eat it make sure to be mindful that this is going to be a part of you now. This body has been made with all of the parts of the earth.
At the end of the day, you are going to decide whether to eat meat or to just have a vegetarian diet. Don't do it because some religion tells you to. Do it if your heart tells you to.
"Do it if your heart tells you to"
I like that but also maybe try having a pet, seeing animals in their natural habitat, even cows, getting to know their habits and inclinations, .. go to a zoo etc. I think the heart can also be educated. For example, Koreans eat dogs but I could never, but I have to ask myself - or at least recognise that I am a hypocrite. Just my view.
I love it but what a slippery slope, @taiyaki.
Time for me to see my Master and practice some more.
_/|\_
Best wishes,
Abu
I can PM a copy of the picture of the guy beating the dead horse to anyone who wants it...
And what was said about the search function on the site is true, IMHO.
on another note @Floating_Abu
Yes slipper slope indeed. Time to slide weeeeee.
and about new threads on old topics, well, when i'm reading through previously closed/old threads, i sometimes feel slightly frustrated. i might have a point/question that isn't answered directly, but i can no longer partake in the discussion. i understand when the question asked is the SAME question that was already discussed a week ago, but in this particular thread, i think it's a slightly new variation on an old theme.
as far as the OP, i agree with compassionate_warrior, "I do think the idea behind vegetarianism is to rise above what nature intended." i think there are a lot of things that some argue are natural to humans that aren't particularly skillful. since we all evolved from animals, you could say that fighting and killing over territory is considered natural as well, and indeed, we do still see a lot of this in the world... but i wouldn't say it's skillful.
I'm actually quite nice when you get to know me...
Bit of a nagging auntie at times, perhaps.
But ok, all things considered.
Meat-eating was essential for human evolution, says UC Berkeley anthropologist specializing in diet
By Patricia McBroom, Public Affairs
BERKELEY-- Human ancestors who roamed the dry and open savannas of Africa about 2 million years ago routinely began to include meat in their diets to compensate for a serious decline in the quality of plant foods, according to a physical anthropologist at the University of California, Berkeley.
It was this new meat diet, full of densely-packed nutrients, that provided the catalyst for human evolution, particularly the growth of the brain, said Katharine Milton, an authority on primate diet.
Without meat, said Milton, it's unlikely that proto humans could have secured enough energy and nutrition from the plants available in their African environment at that time to evolve into the active, sociable, intelligent creatures they became. Receding forests would have deprived them of the more nutritious leaves and fruits that forest-dwelling primates survive on, said Milton.
Her thesis complements the discovery last month by UC Berkeley professor Tim White and others that early human species were butchering and eating animal meat as long ago as 2.5 million years. Milton's article integrates dietary strategy with the evolution of human physiology to argue that meat eating was routine.
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html
Then you can do anything you want with the their skin.
You are not the bad guy for eating.
As long as you dont do evil things to ''living things'' then thats all we can ask for.
Go through your life doing anything you want, just be a good, honest, person and enjoy life.
(Just so people know: I dont argue or read any other comments on here, I be as helpful as i can be to the person asking the question so i only write my comment then leave, and i only comment ONCE. So dont bother addressing any comments back to me as i will not read them)
Best wishes on your path kdryan.
That viewpoint, at least from my perspective, is bogus. Don't get me wrong, I'm a meat eater, and I don't feel there is anything wrong with it...particularly since Buddha occasionally ate meat (at least that's what I've read), and many monks eat meat.
But if you go into a store or restaurant and buy meat, then that animal was killed because of you. I suppose the only way around it is if you were walking along the road and found an already dead possum that had died of natural causes and you sunk your incisors into it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jan/31/foodanddrink.britishidentity
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/mar/26/i-eat-roadkill
Great-grandmother turned her back, refused to eat, and starved to death so that there would be more food for the children when there was not enough food for anybody.
Please do not forget.
We promised Mother we would tell the story to our own children and grandchildren, that it would not be forgotten.
The Buddha taught that the mindful finding or raising, preparation and cooking, sharing, blessing, gratitude, consumption, and even the patient and tolerant discussion of food...
all of it
is practice.
Whats with societies hang up on having to eat meat anyway? I'd love it if more places where I live had more vegetarian options besides the salad. I live in the Midwest United States, I went to visit my cousin once in California and we went to a pizza buffet, they had pizza's with loads of vegetable toppings that you don't ever see here, like zuccini and spinach! I joked to him about all the great options there and said variety back home means you can have a choice between one meat, two meat, three meat, or four meat pizza. I'd love to go vegetarian again, and usually do when cooking at home, but the selection when eating out is aweful here.
I have always joked that if we hadn't been meant to eat animals, they wouldn't have been made out of meat.
An interesting aside; I was listening to NPR and they had a program about how animals are treated and many farmers are finding it easier and more profitable to treat their animals in humane ways. It turns out it's cheaper to keep them out in fields and the lack of stress causes them to have better quality meat or something like that. In the words of one farmer. "These cows only have one bad day in their whole lives.'
Also, scientists are working on 'growing' meat. They've succeeded in growing strands of muscle tissue but the problem right now is that A: it's REALLY hard to make any amount, B: it is terribly expensive (about a pound would cost you around $50,000), and C: the result is pretty tasteless. One scientist compared it to eating rubber. I imagine that once they get the bugs out, the question of the morality of eating meat will be somewhat moot.
Would you (as a vegetarian) eat grown meat?
Buddha taught stuff foe your own good, if you don't listen datz ya loss.
Da mind is a false and natrual instincts and body are temporary! If ya wanna behave like a animal why study Buddhism?
Normal people are "wrong".
The incisor teeth and eating meet are not mentioned in the Precepts.
There are many aspects of Buddhism that we may choose to follow. Generally, for example, I try to use "right speech".
Perhaps you could spend some time observing animals in real life. Watch them, and learn them. They too, cry.
The problem if you do not do it, otherwise is IMO, the whole question/problem here will be too academic (ie conceptual). Go try to learn yourself.
What a wonderful observation. That the path of Buddhism can and does teach oneself restraint and CHOICE over one's actions, speech and ultimately over ALL of one's karma. THAT is transcendence !! That is the beauty, the genuine living and potent potential, of Lord Buddha's Buddha-Dharma.
OK Time for some coffee.
Abu
:rolleyes:
Many thanks.