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Thought Crime & Karma
zidangus
Veteran
I am just wondering what peoples take on this is. I mean for example if someone is really full of rage and has a thought about an act of violence, but would never actually carry it out, do you think there would be some sort of intention here and hence do you think there would be karma associated with this type of thought. Also for a lot of anxiety disorders, sufferers can have disturbing thoughts such as imagining carrying out acts of violence, do you think these thoughts would have karma associated with them ?
I personally do not think that thoughts carry much weight if any in terms of karma, it is actual physical acts that accumulates karma. Thats my opinion anyway.
I personally do not think that thoughts carry much weight if any in terms of karma, it is actual physical acts that accumulates karma. Thats my opinion anyway.
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Comments
http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/karma.html
"Even if we do not act on a negative intention, a karmic seed of diminished potency is still left in the mind. This incompleted seed is easier to remove. If it is not destroyed, a negative seed will eventually produce an unpleasant and negative effect while a postive seed will produce a pleasant and positive effect. Karmic seeds do not go to waste even after one hundred aeons. They will come to fruition when the time comes and the conditions assemble."
It doesn't say though what the effect of that seed will be though, whether it remains a mental event or not.
Word (voicing it) - Medium negative Kamma
Action (doing it) - Big negative Kamma
How small, medium or big it is, depends on the initial thought to begin with.
Kamma is intentional, volitional action. It is what it is.
Breathing is an involuntary mechanical process which frankly, keeps us alive.
You cannot combat a process which is designed to maintain life....not for long, anyway.
We can go without solid nourishment for 14 days, before we begin to suffer serious side-effects.
We can go without fluid nourishment for 4 days, before we begin to suffer serious side-effects.
we can go without air for around 4 minutes, before we begin to suffer serious side-effects.
(I exclude those who have dedicated themselves to stringent discipline and training to accomplish the above to exceed these limits....)
I for one cannot imagine, or think of one single time, when I have eaten food, washed, gone for a walk, driven the car or picked up an object, and not had a thought involved, before I did it....
As far as the body is concerned they certainly do. Over time, one's prevalent thoughts become engraved upon the body physically, biochemically.
Do you really think the anger has no consequence? Don't you think the anger will affect people living with the angry person even if they are not directly involved in the "injustice" in the first place. An angry person will have negative effect on his/her environment.
So I think its how we react to our thoughts, not the thoughts themself that results in karma.
I mean for someone who has an anxiety disorder, and has a hard time controlling their thoughts of fear and pending disaster, they would accumulate masses of negative karma if thoughts actually carried karma. So I really do not think that thoughts can carry any karma, at all unless they are physically acted upon in my opinion
imo Karma merely is moral, mental, spiritual(arisen phenomena) causation. Bad thoughts have a negative mental payload, irrespective of if they lead to bad actions outside of the thoughts.
This is the essence of the very first line in the Dharmapada - What we think we become, we are our thoughts, etc etc
I prefer chess.
But, in honesty, I find some thoughts to be pure and others sullied. I find them and, if I am practicing well, crave neither their existence nor their non-existence.
It is an ocean-wide practice.
If you are not looking at the world with a clear mind, then you are not reacting to the situation with a clear mind. An example. If you think someone is deliberately insulting you and feel angry, the fact that you don't punch them in the nose like you want doesn't eliminate the karma. Your anger at the least makes you walk away, fuming at your hurt ego, instead of seeing reality.
This translation is generally accepted to be far more accurate:
Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox.
Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves.
From here:
http://www.pathofdhamma.com/pairs.html
Again I am not convinced
I have many translations of the Dharmapada, in book and electronically, it amazes me how often they differ but the key point, imo, is that it just doesn't matter.
I don't read the DP and think this is what is said, rather, I think about what is said and ask if it makes sense. Does its understanding and/or practice lead to clarity, wisdom and the reduction of suffering.
On a nitpicky point however, I'm not sure what the core difference of the translation you pasted is to what I was referring to?
Also, you keep talking about not viewing one's thoughts as "good or bad." Which is fine because there no inherent goodness or badness in any thought. However, certain thoughts can be considered to be "UNSKILLFUL." Unskillful thoughts can lead to unskillful actions and words.
If I have the thought of shooting the barking dog that thought is negitavising, in and of itself. Sure, if I actually start to plan and intend to shoot the dog then there will be more negative fruit from that. And if I shoot the dog, even more so.
But it doesn't seem that there is a line in the sand where thoughts do or do not have karmic fruit. Why would they not? Why cant they negitavise? Maybe they have positive karmic fruit because you deal with them skillfully?
I disagree:) If I have negative irrational thoughts there is every possibility that thought thoughts will create negative karma. But the crucial point is that it is how I deal with those thoughts that matter. do I control them? extinguish them? Understand them and prevent them having negative effects, or do I let them run wild in my mind?
Negative thoughts are a sweeping torrent that "through endeavour... restraint and control the wise man can make an island which the flood will not sweep away" DP25
Well wishes
You do not become what you think.
If you think negative, suffering will follow. if you think positive, happiness will follow.
There is a subtle difference.
it's not nitpicking to point out that a translation is faulty, if the interpreted meaning is different to what the original intends.
'Keep to the path' doesn't always mean 'don't walk on the grass'.
Again it is how we react to the thought that leads to unskillful actions not the thought itself.
Karma means action. Every action is karma.
But imo, even if there was a definitive translation, the real issue as to the accuracy of any text is that we can never know how close the Pali text is to the teachings taught by the Buddha.
As said, this just doesn't matter to me, the DP is wonderful and wise and I am thankful for all the various translations, even if they sometimes seem at odds. That is your opinion, mine is that it makes no sense to say it is or is not. We cannot know, nor do we need to know.
dam that stings :bawl:
In my study of Islam (please keep reading), it was considered good/right to be able to control your action despite your mind. For instance, "getting angry and thinking about hitting someone yet showing the restraint to know this is wrong and unwise" was considered a good act. As in, Allah would smile upon you for showing restraint. Yet Christians put sin in thought. This is where I'm going to draw upon that thinking is more complicated than black/white as the Abrahamic religions have done.
Taking this over into Buddhism, we go further and seek to nullify unskillful thought through conditioning, but unless you are taught the ways of Buddhism from infancy, you will likely have developed a pattern of thought in which you allow unskillful thoughts to arise. You have conditioned your mind to allow thoughts of violence and other such unskillful acts/emotions to arise.
Now, you want to argue that such a thing is bad karma that these thoughts are arising, yet I want to argue that it is the ripening of karma. I believe that as Buddhists, we work against this conditioning and that is the ripening of the karma(us working against previous conditioning). Otherwise, without negative karma, there would be nothing to work against, therefore, no suffering from fighting these old thoughts.
For Imagery: We build our negative karma like a mountain. Negative thought is like dirt. Negative Action is like broken glass. It stands between us and our enlightenment. As Buddhists, we must work with our hands to remove it from our path. The dirt is exhausting and intimidating to remove, makes you want to stop. The broken glass in the mountain bites and stings and injures you.
Negative Early-life Thought(The Action) Conditions the Mind to Create Bad Thought. Two Results: You must work against this conditioning later on in life before it manifests into physical action(Result: Mental Suffering) or You continue to further this condition and indulge in the physical action, fruition of thought(Result: Mental and Physical Suffering).
Isn't this basic spiritual progress?
Makes sense to me to think about it in this way.
I think my best shot of explaining how I see karma and thought is that even the act of thinking is an action, although a mental one, and thus not necessarily immune to karmic consequences. If a person starts daydreaming about winning the lottery, it might not matter at all. But if you start daydreaming about winning the lottery while driving a car, so you get in an accident, then obviously your thoughts had consequences. What goes on in your mind is not separate from what is going on around you. That doesn't mean we're saying bad thoughts are bad karma, only that even such an empty thing as thoughts and emotions can have consequences beyond your conscious mind acting on them.
As I see it, there are at least 3 injured parties- 1) the person who had the thoughts and spoke of them, 2) the person who was the object of the hatred,
and 3) the person who listened to the negative thoughts expressed in words.
You could say only actions produce karma, but that would be like saying only shooting produces baskets in basketball. It is true, but there is preperatory conditions for the shooting of baskets.
"That makes me so angry(emotion). I just want to punch that man(intention)."(Thought #1)
"That makes me so angry(emotion). (Let's the emotion fade without giving rise to intent.)"(Thought #2)
Both are thoughts. One has an attached intention. One has no attached intention. You don't have to act on the intention though.
I am on the standpoint that having the intent or fantasy of an action is negative karma. You have become attached to the emotion and given rise to a response. If you merely observe the emotion, watching it come and go, then I would say that is practicing non-attachment and thus positive karma.
Be like a pipe, not a bucket. Let emotion flow through you, not fill and spill out of you. Haha
metta
For me it I think when we allow ourself to react or become attached to our thoughts, then it is indeed possible to have mental karma. For example if I had a thought that could be viewed as upsetting, then if I become attached to this thought, then subsequent thoughts may arise such as, why did I have this thought, whats wrong with me, etc etc then it is clear that this could easily spiral out of control and cause a lot of mental anguish and suffering.
However if I do not allow myself to become attached to the initial thought, just be aware of it arising and then falling, be aware that it is just a thought, it is up to me If I give it significance or energy, then I have no chance to get into the subsequent thought process that can lead to mental suffering.
So again I do not think that thoughts can actually create karma its our reaction to them which does this.
Having said all of this, I think especially for a lay Buddhist there is no doubt that becoming attached to our skillfull thoughts, such as in metta meditation, that tremendous benefit can be found.
So for a lay Buddhist I think its best to become unattached to our unskillful thoughts and attached to our skillfull thoughts. If that makes sense :rolleyes:
my view is it is certainly karma because it has a result...it keeps the mind disturbed...but it is just 'mental karma'. in other words, it does not fall into the sphere of 'morality'
regards