Depression/dissapointment

Theswingisyellow

In looking at depression and or dissapointment, when we engage in such feelings are we not ignoring the truth of inconstance and not-self? This could be about anything that we percieve as "I" It could be one's perception of, one's "I" making as a Buddhist practioner. This "I" is supposed to be and act in a certain fashion, when this does not comport with reality, this "I" we have given birth to suffers death and it is in this death of this fabricated "I" that we mourn. All depression all dissapointments is mourning that which never was. Just some random thinking.
All the best,
Todd

Yishai

Very insightful. :clap: Just another tally to why the realization of not-self is important to end suffering.

federica

In looking at depression and or dissapointment, when we engage in such feelings are we not ignoring the truth of inconstance and not-self?

Of course! But our attachment and clinging to the delusion of a self makes us persist. we cling to what we know.

Also, let us assume here that we are not speaking about those with severe, diagnosed mental afflictions, but of people experiencing Life's standard ups-and-downs.....

genkaku

One of the less pleasant recognitions in Buddhist practice is how deeply -- d-e-e-p-l-y -- in love with our worries we are. Religion won't fix it and philosophy won't fix it and even the very best drugs won't fix it.

But a little practice can help.

Theswingisyellow

Why do we attach, cling and persist in holding to things that only cause our suffering? We create this edifice called "I" and then mourn it when it is naturally taken apart by life's inconstant reality. I would suggest:
1. Our need for a "self" is incredibly high.
2. Our actions, depression, dissapointment, anger ect, are ingrained mental habits that we have used over and over again in similar situations. Initially these are protective responses that with time and habit become not only large habitual responses but become maladaptive responses to conditions.
All these things are simply actions to certain stimuli, that lead to consequences. Is it only by the slow process of meditation, mindfullness and the understanding of true emptiness that these maladaptive responses may be altered?
All the best,
Todd

aMatt

It seems more of a letting go of habituations than altering maladaptions. It could be said that both point to the same phenomena, but it seems to be better to approach it in terms of renunciating, rather than manipulating. Otherwise we're really just trying to create a better self, which is problematic for reasons most likely obvious to you.

Also, isn't reality quite constant?

Theswingisyellow

I guess reality is quite constant, it is my perceptions and and concepts that are not. Thanks for the post Matt, it would seem that renunciation would be the key rather than trying to create another "I"
All the best,
Todd

santhisouk

Whatever we feel.. However we feel, is just. We are samsara, samsara is us. To think of oneself not as samsara is not the way towards freedom. Freedom starts with acceptance.

Yishai

Whatever we feel.. However we feel, is just. We are samsara, samsara is us. To think of oneself not as samsara is not the way towards freedom. Freedom starts with acceptance.

Almost sounds like the beginning of an AA meeting. Har har.

My Take On Why "Self" Exists and Why So Many People Have a Hard Time Dropping It:
Anyway, the reason we need this "self" is because it inclines us to survival and reproductive fitness(we're animals after all). If an animal were to accept its place and the things that occurred, then surely that animal would not survive long in a hostile environment.

For example, there are two people in a room and one piece of cake...mmm, cake. Anyway, they're both hungry. The person with the highest sense of self will get that cake and obviously survive and thus be able to procreate later on (let's say eating cakes opens a door XD). The man who sits and contemplates, "I need the cake. If I do not get cake then my life will end, but the cake is not mine to have. It would be best if we both ate some cake instead.", is going to lose out to the man who thinks "I need that cake; It's my cake to have! DELICIOUS CAKE! *quickly steals the cake* NOM NOM NOM"

The guy who took the cake for himself increased the likelihood of his survival while also eliminating reproductive competition. Kinda like why communism never works. Social systems always create a hierarchy. Wealth also distributes itself to one extreme (Think Pareto's 80-20 Rule. Here, 80% of wealth in less than 20% of the population)The alpha gets his fill, the omega gets the scraps. This sense of "self" helps to establish a high place in the social hierarchy. Although, it can also do the opposite it's sooo complicated @__@

aMatt

Whatever we feel.. However we feel, is just. We are samsara, samsara is us. To think of oneself not as samsara is not the way towards freedom. Freedom starts with acceptance.

When we look at the mountain, we can say it will not always be a mountain, therefore it is not permanent. But if we never bothered, we might notice that it has always been doing its own thing without fail. So, instead of thinking "where is my dear mountain" wouldn't we simply know it rose and fell?

The same with samsara. Its doing its thing, rising/falling, clinging/generating self. We can stop trying to build or erode the samsara, and just notice it is spinning like a coin in our body. This doesn't make it "us" though, it just spins... but won't it erode, like a mountain when no one carries new rocks up its paths? There is delusion in percieving that samsara is us, like some static quality. It seems closer to notice it as something we wear, like a shirt.

Theswingisyellow

Matt,
IMO all of this is just fabricated, we continuously "become" with our ideas and concepts of self. From this we fabricate all manner of non-sense, Samsara being one. Yishai has a good point as to why we generate ideas of self, as protective/defensive mecahanisms. All of our clinging, all of our becoming is predicated on stories, stories about selves, our lives, our ego , and our place in the world. If you think of it it is quite powerful; untold numbers of people have died because of stories, because of egos, because of ideas. There is no Samsara, as there is no Nibanna there is only now....until the next story.

taiyaki

all stories are about you.

SeaOfTranquility

For Sure.

It's interesting to note this identity I have created, the concept of myself, that I am so attached to is the product of my own imagination.

Seeing this tends to help one to not take themselves so seriously.

aMatt

IMO all of this is just fabricated, we continuously "become" with our ideas and concepts of self. From this we fabricate all manner of non-sense, Samsara being one. Yishai has a good point as to why we generate ideas of self, as protective/defensive mecahanisms.

I agree, though it might be more direct as "self is continuously fabricated from clinging to the becoming of ideas and concepts".

I don't agree with the power of stories. They don't have an unavoidable gravity, we have the habit of empowering them.

Theswingisyellow

Matt,
Well stated, I would have to agree. We think, and if we follow this line of thinking, then in the end we become. Would you say that certain conditions give rise to certain ways of thinking, this in turn (after feeling, craving and clinging) brings us to a state of becoming? Also that this mental track is repeated and repeated ad infinitum until that link is seen (using mindfulness)and is halted (the link being severed before becoming) and one chooses a more exalted course of action? So as an example:
I feel I work hard at my job, I am a leader at my work, I help to institute good policies. So I cling to these ideas of self in this particular role, I have thus become this "worker leader self". But naturally this "self" will be broken apart, it will be assailed, it's ideas might not be liked or given credit for. But I have become this self. So I will do , what most do, when they identify with a self I will mourn its loss. I will mourn the loss of certain concepts of me. It all seems so ridiculous. I have so many concepts of self, that of a father, son, husband, nurse, employee, team leader, Buddhist ect...What's driving me crazy is I realize the identification with any of these is tethered to suffering, yet I continue to identify with such ideas. I understand mindfulness and realizing not-self are the keys here, I just wish I could dump it all now. Thanks for listening.

aMatt

In the example you give, it seems very reasonable to identify with all of those states. You are a leader, a worker, a husband, a nurse, an employee etc etc.

However, they don't have to be a new "us" that arises. If they are "us", then when someone challenges the role, or the performance of the role (even as you reflect on your own performance) there arises clinging/avoidance and self cherishing. This decreases our skillfulness, as it uses our precious resources to maintain. "Look at how well I did" or "Look at how crappy I am at being a nurse" or "Is this how a father acts" and so forth.

As we dissolve the self, it could be noticed that those are simply roles we are called to perform, with unique momentary rules and conditions that we do our best to adhere to. We press our mind into the mold, like forging thought into language, but we don't exist as the mold, we are not trapped by language. In that way, rather than creating an image of self, and then enforcing that self in the role, we have a pliable mind we use to meet the need of the role. This cuts down on the silliness of being the 'nurse' and then being the 'husband' etc, like juggling many balls.

We are simply flexible enough to speak the correct language to the correct audience. Then, when we meet failure, we meet it with curiosity rather than condemnation. It isn't a failure of self, but a corner of the mold we didn't fill skillfully.. leaving us free to explore it. Also, when we walk away from the mold, there is nothing to cherish because it was a condition of nature's need, we didn't cling... it wasn't about us. We weren't there making ourselves more self-y, we were there doing our best to serve the need of the role. Self just doesn't come up.

Theswingisyellow

Matt,
As always a very reasoned and well thought response. It is always good to hear from you.
With deep respect,
Todd

Theswingisyellow

For Sure.

It's interesting to note this identity I have created, the concept of myself, that I am so attached to is the product of my own imagination.

Sea,
Wonderful observation.
This concept of self is oh so real to so many yet when you look at this assumption of reality, it seems like a funny dream.

aMatt

Matt,
As always a very reasoned and well thought response. It is always good to hear from you.
With deep respect,
Todd

Thanks Todd, always fun to dance with a mind such as yours.

With warmth,

Matt

krahmer

The same with samsara. Its doing its thing, rising/falling, clinging/generating self. We can stop trying to build or erode the samsara, and just notice it is spinning like a coin in our body. This doesn't make it "us" though, it just spins... but won't it erode, like a mountain when no one carries new rocks up its paths? There is delusion in percieving that samsara is us, like some static quality. It seems closer to notice it as something we wear, like a shirt.

Thank you for this! This is the first time I am finally reading about the concept of non-self in terms that I can relate to. I can now see the path to becoming a buddha. Awesome!

brian

santhisouk

huh?

Theswingisyellow

I think he was quoting Matt

santhisouk

Sometimes when I am depressed or disappointed, the thought of how all things arises remains and passes does help ease the pain.:)

may you find everlasting inner peace.

Theswingisyellow

Sometimes when I am depressed or disappointed, the thought of how all things arises remains and passes does help ease the pain.:)

may you find everlasting inner peace.

Thank you santhisouk. I am not currently depressed or dissapointed. There were things at work that I identified with heavily and when they changed I felt both dissapointed and depressed. I then decided to use that experience for learning to help further my understanding. My Sangha here, as always, is a wonderful help. I believe the hard and difficult things, as long as we don't run from them, are jewels. They are our best teachers.
My best to you,
Todd