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What kinds of abuse occurs in tantra? NOT whether buddha taught NOT abuse in guru
Jeffrey
Veteran
separating these topics
0
Comments
Do we need to rehash? Thanks for the thought, anyway.
some teachers try to get woman for sex.
question: why do they get them for sex? Reproduction? Pleasure? To tweak their chakras? Why not just jerk off?
Woman who have been asked about this refused. The lama gets angry to intimidate the young woman and tells them they are missing an opportunity.
question: are you sure the women refused due to fear of lama or hell?
question: if they refused to talk about it AND yet we know they were intimidated how do we know that? It seems we are basing this on some woman who HAVE been intimidated. And then extrapolating this to all women who will not comment on tantra. The assumption is that there is no other possible reason that they would not comment OTHER than they had been intimidated.
comment: I think we need more clarity on what we are talking about when we say 'tantric practice'. It sounds like gurus are sleeping with their students. Is this really tantric practice? Is it casual sex? Is it casual sex with 'tantric sex' as a false guise? The latter is what you are going for. I think there is an assumption that there is no such thing as a sincere tantric sex with a higher motivation. There is an assumption that anyone who is practicing tantric sex is just out for a piece of ass. I find that highly doubtful to be honest.
Look at it this way: how many male patients go to women doctors, especially for an annual exam or for any problems relating to, say, prostate or sexual dysfunction? What if all the doctors were women?
how can anything be consenting when the lama doesn't talk about the practice openly, and then as you go along on the path, as you learn to lean on the lama, to trust him, and then all the sudden he is slowly getting you ready for tantra, well, often you do as asked. plus he has you convinced that he is a good guy, and that this is for your own benefit. you have then been brainwashed over the years. i would say that it would be good to get a book on brainwashing and how it is done. 2 books come to mind: combatting cult mind control and cults in our midst. you may not like the word "cult" in the title, but the books show you how mind control it is done.
You have not produced a quotation from the kalachakra regarding candy. Again, speculation.
"how can anything be consenting when the lama doesn't talk about the practice openly, and then as you go along on the path, as you learn to lean on the lama, to trust him, and then all the sudden he is slowly getting you ready for tantra, well, often you do as asked. plus he has you convinced that he is a good guy, and that this is for your own benefit. you have then been brainwashed over the years."
Hypothetical. Speculation. If your going from June Campbell then refer to criticisms of Campbell which are posted by person. Allegation which is then used as a generalization.
*sighhhh* I think there are cases of female students seriously interested in learning higher yoga tantra. But there's a lot of "casual sex with 'tantric sex' as a false guise", as you put it, being pushed on students who are at a more elementary stage in their studies or practice. But there also are decent lamas who teach and behave appropriately. But there need to be more of the latter, and less of the former.
I think TB lamas were totally unprepared for the sudden appearance on their scene of large numbers of female students. They'd been accustomed to teaching men, mainly. But Western TB teachers have also taken advantage of their students. Jack Kornfield and others implemented strict behavior rules for teachers for a reason. Those dharma leaders wouldn't have done that if it hadn't been necessary.
I was referring to refusal to divulge the secrets. Not refusal of sex. It seemed like the testimony of June Campbell which is one person. That testimony is extrapolated to all women who do not speak about tantra. The theory is that it is widespread such intimidation. I doubt that theory or rather I point out that extrapolation is less likely than interpolation.
Thats the understanding of the women who you have talked to. We have not heard the other side of the story.
And more importantly we don't know if we can extrapolate these woman. And these gurus. We don't know if we can extrapolate that to all of tantric practice within Tibetan Buddhism.
Whereas many posters are dissing TB because they are making that extrapolation.
I agree with the last sentence though I would replace less with none idealy. I wonder how much in the first sentences you are extrapolating the case of June etc to all other participants/gurus/students?
No, we haven't heard the other side of the story. How about we compile a list of names, and you can go around interviewing these lamas, and you can ask them yourself. Do you think they'll come clean? Anyway, the reports are that the sex had nothing to do with tantric sex, so it was obviously for pleasure.
No, we can't extrapolate to all of the tantric practice in Buddhism. But I think we can agree that some sort of accountability and reform need to be introduced. Also, that students need to be informed of what is reasonable to expect from their teacher, and what's unreasonable. (I'm waiting for the Berzin book, so I can post more on that.)
I think we are on the same page. You are pushing for reform and I am cautioning not to behead my lama due to someone elses mistake. Would be one way to put it!
Remember that there is no monolith exsistent "tibetan buddhism"
I don't know about Kornfield's dharma background. He runs Spirit Rock, a popular dharma center in the Bay Area. He met with HHDL on the subject of abuse because of the Campbell book, the Sogyal lawsuit, and the Trungpa history. There may have been problems at his own center, as well. I don't think his center is strictly one tradition or another.
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OK, right. Not painting everyone with the same brush. Just some people. Just pointing out a serious problem that needs to be addressed. And I'm grateful for the opportunity to discuss it here. Thank you for these threads, I know this is difficult for you.
Might be more effective than extraplating.
I really think someone needs to stand up who has some kind of power. I do agree that education about the dangers of cults/authority is wise. But if such education is irrational and one sided it is quite obvious as such. Such onesided counseling does not reach as many as it could otherwise. Much like I don't tune in to Rush Limbaugh each morning. Although Rush may have wise counsel in some instances. All right this example is a little absurd don't take it the wrong way ;/
When a sangha in Australia recently went public (with a website) on their lama's "misconduct", they were threatened by the sect leadership in India. Some some leadership doesn't seem interested in transparency, accountability, and ethics. So I don't know at this point how to address that. Informing students is a more realistic, do-able step, for starters. HHDL proposed introducing transparency by taking cases to the press and the courts, if necessary. That's good, but doesn't solve the problem on an institutional level. At this point, I have no ideas for that.
But the internet is working a little. I've read that some lamas are telling their students not to believe anything negative they see about TB on the internet. So it's having an effect.
The reason is that there are proper channels. What you need is a proper channel. You are trying to creat your own channel. Which could ultimately be helpful. But you have to keep a pure vision or else your own efforts become corrupted.
You are working to create incentives for students, but there also need to be incentives for organizations.
That could be a whole nother topic.
Again what I said first is speculation. Coupled with the 'head in sand' phenomenon. And 'not make waves'.
Jeffrey, giving girls candy is from the Tantras. When I quote you from the tantras you say it isn't true.
Here is what one author has to say: Wayman, Alex und Lessing, Ferdinand D., Mkhas-Grub-Rje's Fundamentals of Buddhist Tantras, The Hague etc. 1968.
"Youth is a further requirement which the mudra has to meet. The Maha Siddha Saraha distinguishes five different wisdom consorts on the basis of age: the eight-year-old virgin (kumari); the twelve-year-old salika; the sixteen-year-old siddha, who already bleeds monthly; the twenty-year-old balika, and the twenty-five-year-old bhadrakapalini, who he describes as the “burned fat of prajna”
how else are you going to get an 8 year old to let you have sex with her. candy and alcohol, and some texts say to just take her if she isn't cooperating.
And here are the texts:
"The Kalachakra Tantra urges the yogi to render the mudra pliant with intoxicating liquor: “Wine is essential for the wisdom consort [prajna]. ... Any mudra at all, even those who are still not willing, can be procured with drink” (Grünwedel, Kalacakra III, p. 147). It is only a small step from this to the use of direct force. There are also texts, which advise “that if a woman refuses sexual union she must be forced to do so” (Bhattacharyya, 1982, p. 125)."
Bhattacharyya, N.N., History of the Tantric Religion, Manohar 1982.
i ordered the book.
"This captivating autobiography by a Tibetan educator and former political prisoner is full of twists and turns. Born in 1929 in a Tibetan village, Tsering developed a strong dislike of his country's theocratic ruling elite. As a 13-year-old member of the Dalai Lama's personal dance troupe, he was frequently whipped or beaten by teachers for minor infractions. A heterosexual, he escaped by becoming a drombo, or homosexual passive partner and sex-toy, for a well-connected monk. After studying at the University of Washington, he returned to Chinese-occupied Tibet in 1964, convinced that Tibet could become a modernized society based on socialist, egalitarian principles only through cooperation with the Chinese. Denounced as a "counterrevolutionary" during Mao's Cultural Revolution, he was arrested in 1967 and spent six years in prison or doing forced labor in China. Officially exonerated in 1978, Tsering became a professor of English at Tibet University in Lhasa. He now raises funds to build schools in Tibet's villages, emphasizing Tibetan language and culture. Written with Goldstein, head of Case Western Reserve's anthropology department, and Siebenschuh, a Case English professor, this unusual autobiography valiantly suggests a middle way between authoritarian Chinese rule and a return to Tibet's old order. Photos."
"There are also texts, which advise “that if a woman refuses sexual union she must be forced to do so” (Bhattacharyya, 1982, p. 125)."
This sentence tries to make that link, but it just says "texts". Which texts? Is the use of force said in the Kalachakra? Is it in Chopel's book? The implication is that force is allowed in tantric practice but there's no actual evidence that its the case, just supposition. There have also been many quotes by TB lamas past and future saying this isn't ok. Those get dismissed as being lies but anything negative is ok.
I'd also like to note that despite the abuse and prison sentence the passage says that Tsering now dedicates some of his time and effort to helping others. Is that just because he's a naturally kind person in opposition to his environment or did the Tibetan Buddhist environment also have a positive effect on his personality?
using alcohol is forcing... this should be obvious.
they even have a name for that kind of abuse! (drombo)
It's hard to say if being raised in a Buddhist environment is what motivated T Tsering to want to improve life in Tibet. It almost seems that in spite of being raised in Tibetan society, or rather, because of the neglect and cruelty he saw around him, he chose to dedicate his life to bringing about positive change. I feel he was the ultimate patriot, because he rejected the option of living a cushy life in the West or in India, working for the Gov't-In-Exile in favor of the much more challenging path of returning to Tibet and improving Tibetans' way of life by gaining the support of the Chinese, after criticizing them for dragging their feet on building schools and other reforms. He created a school for Tibetan adults to study English, after the Chinese began monopolizing all the foreign-tourism-related jobs. This project met with resounding success, and some Tibetans got jobs in the lucrative tourist trade. He also built rural schools, as the Chinese were only building schools in the more urban areas.
My observation is that Westerners are much more conscientious practitioners of Buddhism than many Tibetans. Let's not harbor illusions about saintly Tibetans. If they weren't prone to jealousy and resentment, the lamas wouldn't dwell on those characteristics so much in their teaching. Like any people, they're a mixed bag.
Similarly, many Westerners who consider themselves Christians don't really apply the "teachings" to their everyday lives. Some consider themselves Christians simply because they live in a Christian society. Likewise with some Tibetans.
@Vincenzi The "drombo" is the male passive sex partner, it doesn't relate to coercing women into sex.
@person Yes, it's a problem anywhere that children are housed with celibate adults. The issue is raised in relation to TB, or Buddhism in general, because we're Buddhists, so the question is: do we have any responsibility to try to eliminate some of the suffering going on in our own back yard, as it were? We don't really have a basis for getting on the Catholics' case, but as Buddhists, we would be justified in expressing concerns about child abuse being perpetrated by authorities in our tradition, or allowed by authorities to be perpetrated.
We're here to discuss abuse issues, so the picture is going to be negative. However, throughout this debate, over several threads, I've repeatedly said that there are decent lamas. Up to now no one has said anything about Tibetans as a nationality, and I did say "some" Tibetans. I know some wonderful Tibetans. Tashi Tsering was treated abusively when he indentured himself to a family, as a way of escaping his duty with the gov't dance troupe. He notes tendencies toward abuses in Tibetan society (in exile as well as in Tibet) of various kinds throughout his autobiography. This may be part of the feudalism package, which is now over. I said "let's not harbor illusions about saintly Tibetans" mainly because of the tendency to believe in a sort of fairy tale on the part of the Western public. I'm not out to get Tibetans. I'm out to ferret out the truth, and bring abuses to light, on behalf of victims and future victims.
And you're right (as I keep saying: ) we don't know if those particular rituals are still practiced. You seem to be focussing on the negative, and missing my positive and cautionary statements, just thought I'd point that out. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you're here, joining in. And the emphasis on malfeasance can be overwhelming when you hear it for the first time. But because it's been hidden so long, people who discover it (or worse, if it happens to them) feel the need to set the record straight. This makes sense, doesn't it? Isn't it a good thing that the mess in the Catholic Church was brought to light?
So, have we beaten this dead horse to death yet? Is 5 (6?) threads enough? Are we done yet?
btw, just thought I'd mention: I didn't start these threads. But when these topics come up, I'm not going to sit on the sidelines.
You had stated that you were quoting from a COMMENTARY
http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/controversy-controversial-teacher-group-center-questionable.html
There's also some good links to some other sources on abuse by gurus.
http://sexandthespiritualteacher.com/interviews-etc/boot-and-the-door/
Further, one can inquire as to the ethics standards the sangha has for teachers. If there's an ethics policy in print (or online), that's a good sign. If they don't know what you're talking about when you say "ethics policy for teachers", you could discuss it with them and see how they react, or just move on.
yeah its the secret stuff. the secret stuff that only a few authors know about and have told us. If you believe that I got a guru to sell you
You had said that before and I thought you were sarcastic. I can't believe you assume a commentary is actually the kalachakra. What basis do you say that?
Jeffrey, you don't believe that there are secret rituals? You can do a study on the internet, you'll run into references to "twilight language" and other methods of hiding the practices. I posted on a couple of your threads, info about a historic Gelug leader who wrote a "condensed version" of the Kalachakra, which I believe was simply the current "public" version, with the secret stuff cut off. I think those secret rituals were handed down orally, after that, until HHDL taught them to the author of the "Commentary" book, who, while he was teaching at the University of Washington, decided to give the teachings to the people at Sakya Monastery. (The book author is from a family that was primarily Sakya.) After that, someone somehow convinced him to publish his lecture at Sakya, and so that's how we have this "Commentary" book. That's how I see the history of it.
All the traditions have secret rituals, higher tantric practices, per the "Shadow of the Dalai Lama" book, online info, and correspondence with people who have studied this. But I'm going to take a look at some tantric texts and commentaries (this'll take time), and I can get back to you.
I wasn't aware of that. I think I get confused with the sex manual and the commentary.
So the commentary is based on teachings from HHDL?