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tantric sex and rituals, and the worshipping of gurus in the context of ahimsa
She says 1) there are accounts of such things (improper behaviour with children) in the sidhas. 2) None of the behaviour I listed (in my email) can be justified with the five precepts. 3)Possibly some non-buddhist text was understood as having symbolic meaning, though she has not heard such in her limited experience. 4) She finds it shocking and wrong to use force or intoxication. 5) Gampopa* obviously found it wrong as well. In his chapter on generosity he explicitly states that one should not give away family members without their consent. He was no doubt thinking of the Jatika story of King Vessantara – but he might as easily have had this sort of thing in mind too.
6) "What does it tell me about Tibetan Buddhism as a whole? It reaffirms everything I have already realised in terms of how we all have to take responsibility for our own actions. It is wrong to take advantage of children. As adults we have to be clear about where we stand. It is naïve to think that we have to do as we are told or suffer the consequences in hell. That is against all reason and all the precepts. I feel quite angry when I think of any child or any person being treated in that way and being taken advantage of."
7) "I am very careful about who I take teaching from and what transmissions I receive and my teachers are very careful about their motivation and the motivation of those they are teaching. If they have ever acted in a way that has been impure then they will suffer the karmic result of that. They have never displayed that kind of behaviour to me."
8) "I make sure that students are not put into a position where they will find themselves compromised into having made commitments that involve them in keeping secrets about unethical behaviour."
9) "Nonetheless, much is made of Tantric and Vajrayana Buddhism as if it were all perfectly safe and open to everyone and then people find that they are supposed to be bound by vows that they never agreed to. I think this is outrageous and shameful and is against all the precepts of a path to liberation. Yes there is adhistana and there are cultural differences and so I can imagine that there might be some benefit sometimes in things that we would find unacceptable but when I come across this kind of talk (and it is there in the stories of the siddhas) I feel disgusted."
* Author of THE lam rim text written in 1000 AD roughly (for the kagyu school)
Vincenzi, I posted the question she responded to in a post dated around when Thao was discussing the improper forced use of children.
I hadn't discussed the issue of gurus being above morality with her. I have since then sent a different email about THAT formulated as 1) there is abuse and what is done to investigate 2) are the gurus above morality that doesn't make sense 3) wouldn't two mess up one and make problems.
She doesn't always give a response right away. She has over two hundred people in the sangha I think. I will PM you if she responds. She is also on retreat but if I don't forget about the whole thing I will remind her.
It might seem like I defend abuse, but really I defend the rest of Tibetan Buddhism along with open minded about sex as long as it is not sexual misconduct and against the precepts. The vinaya is only for those who have taken vows. For that matter not all have taken the five precepts. There are many who are not buddhists, but we should encourage them to join us (and learn) rather than reject them in the cold awful samsara.
If she is lying that would be odd since she has given tireless dharma talks having nothing to do with inflicting or hiding abuse. Or sex for that matter.
at the end of the day, what may be the only benefit from the idea of tantric sex... is that non-harmful actions that can lead to tanha (thirst. clinging) can be practiced in a way that furthers the path.
the rituals is also an important point... one of the fetters is "attachment to rites and rituals (specially as a form of liberation)". ritualistic tantric sex, specially with authoritarian brahmic (as in deified or worshiped) gurus... is against the very core of Buddhism.
...the idea of tantric sex between a couple as an aproach (not a ritual) to use sensuality to further (and not slow) the path is nice. visualisations are therefore, unnecessary. there's just the reality of each other manifestation of love (that should become maitri).
I think I misworded that. I was meaning to say that attachment to not having rituals was also a fetter. I do think that but it would be confusing for you because there is a specific five fetters that you are learning.
So it was confusing to think of it as all attachment as a fetter. But I think that is true.
I think basicly what you are saying is that the desire realm, the form realm, and the formless realm are not enlightenment. This is consistent with what is taught if I am correct in TB.
Perhaps the rituals are part of the form realm like walking meditation. Which can lift us out of the desire/rumination realm?
I don't know about the five fetters. It doesn't seem too useful to me because I find rituals to pacify my state of mind. Like if you are depressed create an activity to raise energy.
I would point out that fetter to rituals is not the first fetter given up. So its expected for attachment to rituals to exist until that point. Its like studying for the bar while you are in prelaw.
the rituals are still being taught by the Dalai Lama. When I read Stephen Batchelor's book I learned that he had been a student of the Dalai Lama. When my teacher claimed that the Kalacakra was not sexual, I wrote to him, and then I wrote to him again to see if the Dalai Lama taught them. Next I just got an answer that I can quote him:
"Dear (name removed),
I’ve not read the whole of the Trimondi book – it was written in German years ago, but never published in English. No one I know takes it seriously. However, all higher yoga tantras, including the Kalachakra, contain sexual practices, but these are only supposed to be undertaken after years of training. But, of course, some teachers use them as a justification to gain sexual favours from students. So be careful.
Warmly, Stephen"
and this:
"Dear (name removed),
I suppose it is possible that your teacher might have learned about sexual practices of the Kalachakra from the Dalai Lama - I also received some instructions from one of his tutors on these matters, but it was never expected that I would put them into practice - just necessary as part of receiving the complete transmission of that lineage. I hope all goes well for you in your post Tibetan Buddhist future,
I keep repeating this when the subject comes up, but I find it interesting that one of the highest lamas after the Karmapa, who was in his teens when (according to him) sexual tantra was introduced to the west (by the 16th Karmapa and Kalu Rinpoche, among others) and was "very popular", now feels tantra shouldn't be taught anywhere, not in the West or the East. He seems to feel that the solution to the problems that have arisen (he mainly focuses on the popularization of sex techniques, divested of spirituality) is to eliminate tantra from the scene.
But if it's still going to be taught, I think students should be told when they join a sangha that the sangha's highest practices involve this type of tantra. Thao says her teacher denied it, but she saw on his teacher's website that her teacher was lying. This isn't right--to deliberately mislead students in order to attract them to the practice, then later surprise them with something they didn't want, and had clearly stated they didn't want. In marketing language, it's called "bait-and-switch", and it's illegal in the US.
in the case Dakini mentioned, it was the precept of "not lying". in the case Thao has mentioned, it was the precept of "not taking intoxicants of the mind" (use of alcohol). and finally, if it is forced... it IS sexual misconduct.
I would agree that using alcohol is against the fifth precept. I wouldn't agree that keeping a secret is lying. I have secrets that I won't tell you but I am not breaking the precept. I think that is important to distinguish. There may have been individuals who have lied, but just generically tantra doesn't require lying. I agree forced sexuality is sexual misconduct, but that is true of anyone and has nothing to do with tantra.
I'd also point out that vajrayana buddhism as a whole hasn't damaged buddhism in the west. His holiness the Dalai Lama is one of the most inspiring captivating and compassionate embassadors imaginable to the non-buddhist public.
Comments
She says 1) there are accounts of such things (improper behaviour with children) in the sidhas. 2) None of the behaviour I listed (in my email) can be justified with the five precepts. 3)Possibly some non-buddhist text was understood as having symbolic meaning, though she has not heard such in her limited experience. 4) She finds it shocking and wrong to use force or intoxication. 5) Gampopa* obviously found it wrong as well. In his chapter on generosity he explicitly states that one should not give away family members without their consent. He was no doubt thinking of the Jatika story of King Vessantara – but he might as easily have had this sort of thing in mind too.
6) "What does it tell me about Tibetan Buddhism as a whole? It reaffirms everything I have already realised in terms of how we all have to take responsibility for our own actions. It is wrong to take advantage of children. As adults we have to be clear about where we stand. It is naïve to think that we have to do as we are told or suffer the consequences in hell. That is against all reason and all the precepts. I feel quite angry when I think of any child or any person being treated in that way and being taken advantage of."
7) "I am very careful about who I take teaching from and what transmissions I receive and my teachers are very careful about their motivation and the motivation of those they are teaching. If they have ever acted in a way that has been impure then they will suffer the karmic result of that. They have never displayed that kind of behaviour to me."
8) "I make sure that students are not put into a position where they will find themselves compromised into having made commitments that involve them in keeping secrets about unethical behaviour."
9) "Nonetheless, much is made of Tantric and Vajrayana Buddhism as if it were all perfectly safe and open to everyone and then people find that they are supposed to be bound by vows that they never agreed to. I think this is outrageous and shameful and is against all the precepts of a path to liberation. Yes there is adhistana and there are cultural differences and so I can imagine that there might be some benefit sometimes in things that we would find unacceptable but when I come across this kind of talk (and it is there in the stories of the siddhas) I feel disgusted."
* Author of THE lam rim text written in 1000 AD roughly (for the kagyu school)
your teacher made a nice reply.
was there any mention of guru/lama worship?
I hadn't discussed the issue of gurus being above morality with her. I have since then sent a different email about THAT formulated as 1) there is abuse and what is done to investigate 2) are the gurus above morality that doesn't make sense 3) wouldn't two mess up one and make problems.
She doesn't always give a response right away. She has over two hundred people in the sangha I think. I will PM you if she responds. She is also on retreat but if I don't forget about the whole thing I will remind her.
It might seem like I defend abuse, but really I defend the rest of Tibetan Buddhism along with open minded about sex as long as it is not sexual misconduct and against the precepts. The vinaya is only for those who have taken vows. For that matter not all have taken the five precepts. There are many who are not buddhists, but we should encourage them to join us (and learn) rather than reject them in the cold awful samsara.
If she is lying that would be odd since she has given tireless dharma talks having nothing to do with inflicting or hiding abuse. Or sex for that matter.
at the end of the day, what may be the only benefit from the idea of tantric sex... is that non-harmful actions that can lead to tanha (thirst. clinging) can be practiced in a way that furthers the path.
the rituals is also an important point... one of the fetters is "attachment to rites and rituals (specially as a form of liberation)". ritualistic tantric sex, specially with authoritarian brahmic (as in deified or worshiped) gurus... is against the very core of Buddhism.
...the idea of tantric sex between a couple as an aproach (not a ritual) to use sensuality to further (and not slow) the path is nice. visualisations are therefore, unnecessary. there's just the reality of each other manifestation of love (that should become maitri).
what do you mean it is the same fetter?
well... meditation doesn't have to be the focus of tantric sex, it may be just the general approach.
So it was confusing to think of it as all attachment as a fetter. But I think that is true.
I think basicly what you are saying is that the desire realm, the form realm, and the formless realm are not enlightenment. This is consistent with what is taught if I am correct in TB.
Perhaps the rituals are part of the form realm like walking meditation. Which can lift us out of the desire/rumination realm?
"attachment to rituals" is the fetter. attachment to not having rituals isn't really a fetter.
the closest to that meaning is "Skeptical doubt" (of being on the right path towards nirvana), but it is not the same.
nirvana is experienced within the 31 planes, maybe you are refering to paranirvana?
"Perhaps the rituals are part of the form realm like walking meditation. Which can lift us out of the desire/rumination realm?"
to think that is a clear example of the fetter (no offense, the fetters may not be recognized in all schools).
rituals doesn't lead to freedom from dukkha, to think so is a way to keep binded/chained someone to samsara.
"Dear (name removed),
I’ve not read the whole of the Trimondi book – it was written in German years ago, but never published in English. No one I know takes it seriously. However, all higher yoga tantras, including the Kalachakra, contain sexual practices, but these are only supposed to be undertaken after years of training. But, of course, some teachers use them as a justification to gain sexual favours from students. So be careful.
Warmly, Stephen"
and this:
"Dear (name removed),
I suppose it is possible that your teacher might have learned about sexual practices of the Kalachakra from the Dalai Lama - I also received some instructions from one of his tutors on these matters, but it was never expected that I would put them into practice - just necessary as part of receiving the complete transmission of that lineage. I hope all goes well for you in your post Tibetan Buddhist future,
With warm wishes, Stephen"
But if it's still going to be taught, I think students should be told when they join a sangha that the sangha's highest practices involve this type of tantra. Thao says her teacher denied it, but she saw on his teacher's website that her teacher was lying. This isn't right--to deliberately mislead students in order to attract them to the practice, then later surprise them with something they didn't want, and had clearly stated they didn't want. In marketing language, it's called "bait-and-switch", and it's illegal in the US.
indeed... how the abuse of tantra happens breaks most precepts. why keep the secrecy?
tantra was a mistake... westernized tantra may even damage the image of Buddhism in the long term (and with reason!).
I don't see how it breaks the precepts because sex is not against the precepts.
in the case Dakini mentioned, it was the precept of "not lying".
in the case Thao has mentioned, it was the precept of "not taking intoxicants of the mind" (use of alcohol).
and finally, if it is forced... it IS sexual misconduct.
it is lying if, as Dakini and Thao mentioned, a teacher denies that tantric sex is part of the practices of the sangha... when it is indeed practiced.
So that is equivalent to if I said Italians are rapists instead of saying that certain Italians are rapists.
read again
"how the abuse of tantra happens breaks most precepts."
...apologizer
"..apologizer"
pfft thats really unneccessary.
I apologize