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tantric sex and rituals, and the worshipping of gurus in the context of ahimsa
Vincenzi
Veteran
the practices described in the kalachakra sutra, and the authoritarian posture from which any guru/lama exposes such nonsense, are contrary to the very simple concept of ahimsa.
if this suspicious/secretive practices is what Buddhism is about (note: I don't think it is), then the Jains may be more closer to the truth! (with their emphasis on ahimsa).
if this suspicious/secretive practices is what Buddhism is about (note: I don't think it is), then the Jains may be more closer to the truth! (with their emphasis on ahimsa).
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Comments
You have a rigid fantasy of authority. Your father and mother had authority over you and they had respect for you as well. I think 'authority' to you is a loaded word with a loaded meaning. YMMV (your mileage may vary) compared to mine.
You are suspicious. Tantrikas are secretive. I can't answer for YOU what buddhism is about. Why do you feel threatened by others practices? In america sometimes they say you are not a real american because of your politics. This is same foolish.
you are the first member of this forum that I have considering blocking (don't know if that's possible).
your last posts are too bitter and far away from ahimsa.
But if ahimsa is to be the standard, then this business of realized gurus being somehow above "mundane" morality has got to go. I would think that's it's still possible to practice higher yoga tantra without having teachers who are outside the law or exempt from the precepts.
Jeffrey, can we agree that reforms are needed? There's nothing wrong with introducing reforms, is there? Western religions need reforms, too. Authority is sometimes abused in TB (and Zen), let's leave it at that. Nothing that some reforms can't take care of.
I think we have reached an understanding.
@compassionate_warrior @Jeffrey
maybe the kalachakra is a fringe practice, and if so it will be easier to "outlaw".
Contents
Preface..............................................................7
Introduction by Jeffrey Hopkins......................................9
1 Gedün Chöpel: Provocative Iconoclast..........................11
2 Sources for the Treatise on Passion...........................33
3 Equality of Women.............................................49
4 Sixty-Four Arts of Love.......................................63
5 Sexual Pleasure and Spiritual Insight.........................95
6 Ethic of Love................................................121
7 Enhancing Female Pleasure....................................135
8 Classificatory Schemes.......................................153
Treatise on Passion by Gedün Chöpel................................165
Editions of the Text...........................................166
Prologue.......................................................167
1 Types of Men and Women.......................................171
2 The Passionate Relationship..................................179
3 Time.........................................................189
4 Essence......................................................195
5 Women of Various Places......................................203
6 Embracing....................................................209
7 Kissing......................................................213
8 Pinching and Scratching......................................217
9 Biting.......................................................221
10 Ways of Pleasure............................................223
11 Playing with the Organ......................................229
12 Moving To and Fro and Pressing..............................233
13 Erotic Noises...............................................243
14 The Deeds of the Man Done by the Woman......................247
15 Methods of Copulation.......................................251
16 Uncertain Acts..............................................255
17 Helpful Techniques..........................................259
18 Conclusion..................................................269
Bibliography.......................................................277
it does sound as tantra... as practiced and promoted in the west.
Vincenzi, how do you know how tantra is practiced and promoted in the West? I'd never heard of it until these discussions began to crop up months ago.
The discussion has revolved around the kalachakra whereas it should be made clear that these are commentaries.
in mass media (movies, tv), tantric buddhism is mentioned mostly as a way to "enhance sexual performance"... and nothing else (sometimes as an "alternate path towards nirvana"; but the mass media focuses only on sexual aspects).
How would the mass media know how tantric buddhism is practiced? You cannot and should not form an impression of a topic only from the mass media. This is how stereotypes and intolerance come about.
@person I got the impression that Chopel was admonishing his (tantric practitioner) colleagues for injuring 12-year olds, and he was proposing an alternative. But it is a bit out of place in a sex manual. (Makes you wonder who he thought his intended audience would be.) That's where the confusion is coming from, and of course, it's open to interpretation.
I have searched for a more accurate description of tantra... but it went from "a practice to enhance sexual performance and enjoyment for pseudo-spiritual reasons" to "a practice of institutionalized sexual abuse that comes from an authoritarian position".
you may define it how you wish but others may not understand your assumptions
Vincenzi,
When you said IS promoted in the west. IS. That means that you would have to have special knowledge of how it is practiced in the west. Therefore I asked you how you came by this insight. You replied: movies and tv
Vincenzi, what kind of movies and tv programs do you watch?? Maybe Italy (or Europe) is different from the US. I haven't seen programming like that.
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/tantra/level1_getting_started/practicing_tantra_effectively/transcript_1.html?query=what+is+tantra
it is not necessary to say... that how tantra is "practiced" in the west isn't the correct way.
however, the "correct" way may not be that useful (specially for the ultimate goal of nirvana).
westerners think tantra is something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guru_(2002_film)
Jeffrey, The Commentary of the Kalachakra Tantra is not the sex manual, it is used only for those taking inititation. The sex manual is Chopel's work.
We are not children; we are grownups, and as grownups we should be treated with respect, and well, so should children.
Warning others of the dangers of tantric practice and harm by gurus is not feeling threatened.
There are a lot of Tantric practices. I think people should buy the book I have that I got on Amazon. You will never find the same practices online. After all, they are secret, so don't expect to find them.
it can only be extinguished so that spiritual bliss arises.
An authority figure such as a judge, does not prohibit that they treat one with respect.
Vincenzi, I was referring to is theatened I believe as are you not in relation to sexual abuse as any reasonable person would find sexual abuse abhorent. But also threated because it is a take on buddhism different from the one you are accustomed to. In effect you two believe you can dictate what is called 'buddhism' so as to rule out practices which use the energy of the kleshas as spiritual food.
Nobody is arguing that we should tolerate sexual abuse. Nobody.
comparing a lama to a judge. hmmmm.
if you don't mind a teacher running your life, then fine. but no teacher is going to run my life, not even my husband and so we are on equal grounds. but if you like to kowtow to a lama and obey him/her, then what can I say?
I haven't stated that he did. We don't know if buddha taught the Pali Canon. We don't know if buddha existed.
I don't care if buddha existed or not. Zen master said buddha is shit on a stick. To reduce grasping to buddha. I care what helps in my life. And helps others to share my joy.
Thats basicly tantra for you
I also understood the OP to be commenting on the practice of viewing the guru as second only to the Buddha, and trusting him/her with everything, including one's life and well-being. I think this is what was meant by "authoritarianism". This is a requirement for receiving the higher tantric teachings and empowerments, but the concept has been misused. I think the OP is questioning whether it's appropriate to have it anywhere in Buddhism. It's a fair question.
I think there are too many teachers in some Buddhist traditions who really aren't concerned with ahimsa. Not to mention the monks in the monasteries who abuse the novices. I like Vincenzi's occasional reminders, in any context, of the fact that Buddhism is supposed to be about ahimsa and compassion.
Allegedly. And if you are correct then they aren't secret anymore. The other possibility is that the commentary is incorrect regarding what the secret rituals are.
I liked this post in the other thread:
"They strike me as very kind and holy beings, not just nice but genuinly holy. I have a hard time accepting that in public they are kind, wise, helpful people while behind closed doors they are secretly child rapists and abusive, sexual deviants. The allegations have been made against the tantric commentary and practices in a feudalistic culture (it used to be common for people to get married at 12 or younger). I haven't seen any evidence here against any particular lamas or notion that this continues today and I think it takes repeated, specific allegations to be able to paint with such a wide brush."
Chopel also insists that premature sex matures girls, while early sex is bad for boys, it's best for boys to wait until they're 21. Seriously. And he defends himself, saying that this is what the elders say. Clearly, he was criticized for this belief, as Hopkins explains, so he included an emphatic defense in the text. Make of that what you will. I think it's a very convenient belief for pervs and people who require 10-year olds and 12-year olds for sex rituals.
I don't think we can necessarily extrapolate worshipping virgins to tantric buddhism due to the fact that both are Tibetan. That would be akin to comparing Branch Davidians military buildup to local community Christian churches. Imagine if you were a small town Christian and an asian man came into your church and asked where the automatic weapons are stored?
So Jeffrey Hopkins says that Chopel is referring to tantric ritual? Who is Jeffrey Hopkins? Can this be further vefiried as factual content that Chopel is a tulku? Who proclaimed that he is one? Couldn't anyone proclaim that they are a tulku? What if Jeffrey Dahmer had proclaimed that he was a tulku?
I would be interested in how this material relates to the tantric buddhism which my teacher has practiced? Is she, my teacher, a participant in the worship and deflowering of 12 year old girls? I doubt it based on my conversations with my teacher. I would find that to be less likely than some of the members on the forum members of the mafia but it is possible. Thats just my opinion.
I remain skeptical that tantra is practiced in the 21st century with 12 year old girls.
And no, we don't know for sure. I questions Hopkins' assumptions myself, when I read the book. Hopkins is a well-known translater and student of the Dharma, look him up on Wiki, if you need to.
Chopel was discovered to be a tulku in his youth, according to custom, but he renounced his tulku status and gave back his robes. He said he'd been "living a lie", and I guess he just wasn't cut out for the monastic life.
Well, this is the $50,000 question: are these rituals still practiced, or is this being passed on as lore, or as completion of the teachings of a certain lineage, not intended to be practiced? We don't know. I've said several times since Thao initiated this topic that we don't know if these rituals are still practiced. And I seriously doubt they were ever practiced in the West. Not "live" anyway, but quite possibly via visualization.
Sometimes I think some of the lamas come to the West with the expectation of getting personal with women students.
I said "can be very different". Some teachers teach in a legit way.
I also think that the kindness and sweetness that some students encounter can be a good front. People will let down their guard for someone they perceive to be harmless and kind. I can't speak as well to that, but a couple of women have said that.
I also think a consensus is starting to form... which will be nice if someone wants to help organize some reforms in TB.
a) it is better if it leads to a reform (or a "clearance of acusations")
b) it already happened with beatnick buddhism (or new age), and for some... tantra is about "longer and better sex".