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Did the Dalai Lama teach to give candy to children to have sex with them?
In the context of the highest secret teaching of tantra. Or is this just a myth/error?
I tend to doubt this is true, but it has come up in the thread
here.
If it is true I thought it warrants a whole 'nother thread to focus attention on this possibility.
0
Comments
(You sure are doing a very thorough job of covering the "abuse" topic!)
Hevajra Tantra: “A wise man ... should remove the filth of his mind by filth ... one must rise by that through which one falls”, or, more vividly, “As flatulence is cured by eating beans so that wind may expel wind, as a thorn in the foot can be removed by another thorn, and as a poison can be neutralized by poison, so sin can purge sin”. For the same reason, the Kalachakra Tantra exhorts its pupils to commit the following: to kill, to lie, to steal, to break the marriage vows, to drink alcohol, to have sexual relations with lower-class girls A Tantric is freed from the chains of the wheel of life by precisely that which imprisons a normal person."
http://yoniversum.nl/daktexts/tthevajra.html
The Hevajra Tantra teaches the Union of Skillful Means and Profound Cognition; and states that such union is helpful in achieving the powers known as siddhis. The text belongs to the higher or Inner Tantras and includes the truly famous quote (the one below) that explains a basic tenet of Tantra in only a few words; as do the two others:
“One must rise by that by which one falls”
“By whatever thing the world is bound, by that the bond is unfastened”
“Beings are bound by passion and are released by utilising passion”
The Tantric reverence towards, and dependance on, women in general (and the yoni in particular), is born out in the following three quotes from the text; as is the clearly intimate nature of most higher and secret rituals:
“At all times, whether washing one’s feet or eating, rinsing the mouth, rubbing the hands, girding the hips with a loincloth, going out, making conversation, walking, standing, in wrath, in laughter; the wise man should always worship and honor the lady.”
“Concentrate on the triangle of origination in the midst of
space.”
“I dwell in the yoni of the female in the form of semen.”
Kalachakra Tantra
Sanskrit kalacakram: Wheel of Time
A very extensive seventh-century work that attempts to describe all phenomena of the world in an all-inclusive vision. The outer section deals with cosmology and natural sciences such as astronomy, geography and engineering.
The inner section, the more secret part of the text, describe the human body and mind, the functions of the nadi, six types of meditation practice, and contain visualizations concerning the use and flow of s.exual energy.
According to Edwin Bernbaum and his The Way to Shambhala, the text teaches, for example, that male semen and menstrual flow “carry the impulse to enlightenment and can spread bliss throughout the body, transforming it into a vehicle to liberation” (Bernbaum, p.124).
The scripture, belonging to the highest group of Tantras, has been especially valued by the Jonangpa school of Vajrayana, but is taught in other schools as well.
The Kalachakra Tantra and its associated rituals also laid the basis for the Tibetan calendar, which started in 946, and is said to have originated in India at least 300 years before it reached Tibet. The work also contains some of the teachings that later became part of the famous ‘Six Doctrines of Naropa’ or Naro Chos-drug.
http://yoniversum.nl/daktexts/ttkalach.html
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So from this it doesn't seem like the actual Kalachakra is a sexist teaching meant to use women. If that commentary is to be taken literally then it seems like maybe its a corruption and perversion of the teaching. My main point is, one can probably pick and choose parts of most things to paint them in a negative or positive light, but to have an honest take of a thing we need to take it in its entirety.
Also, following the link you provided didn't lead to the quote you used, maybe you could relink it?
As a Buddhist of over 30 years, I found the Trimondi book to be absurd. I read that the Trimondis were financed by the German Communist Party to write an anti-Buddhist propaganda book against the Dalai Lama. I also read that the Trimondis are two German Communists with suspected links to the Bader-Meinhoff terrorist organization. Stick with respected and trusted Buddhist authors.
Edit: Well, you seem to have stumbled on a land mine with the Trimondi book. Probably any other link is better than that one. One mistake Trimondi makes is to take that which is a metaphor, visualization, or is to be imagined as literal. This is one of the main reasons that the tantras are not taught to beginners. One thing to keep in mind is that one of the fundamental tenets of Buddhism is to not harm others. So anything you’ve read that seems to indicate the contrary is probably a metaphor for something else, such as defeating one’s ego-centeredness rather than an actual physical enemy.
As for Buddhism and sex. There’s no such thing as a tantric orgy. If you heard of such a thing happening, it’s just purely indulgence in a regular worldly orgy.
And you should know that yes, Buddhists have sex. Otherwise we’d have died off a long time ago. It’s monks who generally don’t have sex, except that a very few Tibetan monks have wives. The point of abstaining from sex for a monk is to simplify their lives so they can practice the dharma. If there are sexual feelings, they are acknowledged and worked with just like any other thought. As with any emotion, passion is suffering when it has the aspect of attachment. Also, Buddhists do not partake of sex in a way that harms others.
New Tibetan Buddhist students should be taught Buddhism in a gradual manner, beginning with the fundamentals of hinayana and mahayana, and lastly, after probably years of study, begin to study the tantras, which, as I have said, are quite susceptible to misinterpretation, particularly for non-Buddhists and people new to Buddhism.
http://mysticbanana.com/buddhists-what-is-the-law-of-inversion-and-kalachakra-tantra.html
Another portion of the Kalachakra teachings describes women in a very negative way. In his teaching of the Kalachakra in Illinois in 1999, the Dalai Lama even paused in his rendition of the teachings to almost apologize for the seeming harshness of the text regarding women and noted that this part was directed to monks who should avoid women. Further controversy, especially in the West, centers on the sexual dimension of the teachings and the graphic representation of the united couple in Kalachakra paintings. The ecstatic state of sexual union is an elementary part of the Kalachakra practice but all are warned against this actual practice because base human factors can so easily enter what should be a pure practice.
But of course this can be easily dismissed by saying he is lying.
I dunno, if we're going to live in a world where people fight alcoholism with alcohol, and jealousy with jealousy, and anger with anger, I might just look around for a different habitable planet.
And I think you're right. There's been a corruption of the original practices. June Campbell talks about the influence of the ultimate in male-dominated societies--the monastic system, and its disparaging of women, such as HHDL apologized for, on the practices.
Here is some more from it, page 160: "The five ambrosias are literally substances such as excrement, urin and so forth. A higly realized yogin is able to transform them and actually exprience great bliss."
"In like manner, the Buddha states very frequently in the Vinaya Sutras that the monks should take absolutely no alcohol and should not have any sexual intercourse or relationships with women. In fact, they should not even be alone in the same room with a woman. This is very emphatically and repeatedly stated--it is very strict. This is meant for being who are still subject to taking lower rebirth as a result of such actions. However, monks who have gone quite far in their practice and have gained very high states of realization in terms of bodhichitta, realization of emptiness, as well as their practices of tantra, are allowed by the Buddha to have sexual intercourse with women and to take alcohol. he reason is that at a certain stage of practice, when one is sufficiently advanced, these same activities can \further one towards the attainment of full enlightenment." Page 158
person, do you still think that the consort is only visualized after reading this?
the trimondis, again, were disciples of the dalai lama and had access to his texts since they were also his publishers. They left as a result.
"If, during the ganacakra, when the meat and alcohol are offered, one says(possibly being a vegetarian) "Oh, I am too pure for that, I don't touch meat.!" or if one is a monk for whom there is the precept of not taking alcohol and says, "I am a very pure monk and I will not touch that," and in either of these cases rejects the tshog, one incures this root downfall."
Sorry I did not put the right quote on my last post, but as you can see from the Kalacakra the Trimondis are correct.
Do you really think you can transform sex with sex, murder with murder, etc?
The TBs are doing what the Chinese government does, it lies to its people. In this case they are covering up by putting down the Trimondis
The tantras certainly don't sound like the rest of Buddhist teachings so it seems reasonable to say that they aren't an actual part of Buddhism. But the arguement for engaging in the negative emotions in order to transform them from an advanced state of mind seems like a reasonable arguement to me.
Just because the Trimondi's were translators doesn't mean they had a proper understanding. In fact a translator focuses on the words and its easy for the actual meaning to get lost. And like I said they're the only source I could find for the "Law of Inversion" or most of the other negative criticisms of tantra. Not to say that that means they're wrong but another source would be more convincing.
but even in the "legit version" of tantra... why would one want to practice with a sword pointed at the heart and a precipice on its back?!
@person I agree with what you say. When discussing misconduct and abuses, it's easy to end up giving the impression that tantra is being characterized in a narrow way, or that this is the only way we view it. I think that under ideal conditions, with morally impeccable teachers, and with willing partners (husband and wife, for example) it could be a valid practice. (Though I don't go along with the : realized beings are allowed to kill, lie, etc. principle, and I don't believe the Buddha ever said this.)
The problem is, conditions are rarely ideal, there aren't as many teachers practicing ethically (with their less advanced students) as we would like. So we end up discussing the problems that arise. And there's nothing wrong with that, if we're motivated by addressing a cause of suffering for people. Everyone's right. The reports are right. In a higher tantric level, the view that at that level tantra is being used for mundane sex is probably incorrect. So those who say the views are incorrect are right, when speaking about the higher tantra context. The person to say that the behavior is abuse is the person who was on the receiving end of the behavior. The abuse accusations, in my understanding, come from people who were coerced into a "practice" they didn't want, whether it's a genuinely advanced ritual, or mundane sex. I don't think anyone is complaining that their voluntarily agreed-upon higher tantra instruction was abuse.
Well, Tibet was suppose to not have children in the monasteries in Tibet. Look at this New Jonang school with young children as students. How convenient.
"Because its the quick path." Hmmm, a quick path to hell, except that I don't believe in hell.
I just gave you my source which is from the Kalacakra Tantra, and you just rejected it, I guess.
You may have been a Buddhist for 30 years, but have you taken the highest tantras, I know a man that did, and he had to have a real person to practice with, not a visualization.
Having said that though, Padmasambhava is said to be a second Buddha and he was a renouned tantric practicioner.
superstition to promote a point of view?
The Kalacakra Tantra says it is okay for lamas to do what they want, lose their morals, so to speak. The Trimondis never said that it was okay, they just exposed the teaching. What I quoted from above was the Commentary on the Kalacakra Tantra, not from Trimondis.
Who made Padmasambhava the second Buddha? Tibetan Buddhists often claim that Shakayamuni Buddha taught the tantras. If they would be honest and just say that another Buddha taught it, then I would be okay with it in that way. But I am also outraged that women and children have been hurt by it. My ex teacher would just tell me that it was their karma, and that is exactly what he said when I complained to him about the Dalai Lama banning a lineage, but now I just think that the Tibetan Buddhists should all be exposed to prevent more harm, but of course people are always going to be harmed. Still, I don't think we should just sit back and allow it because it is their karma.
They can't even be honest about the secret tantra teachings and so deny it. I was in New Jonang, and my teacher denied that sex was even taught. I had to find out on his teacher's website and by getting the Kalacakra Tantra. It bothers me that he lied, and it bothers me to think that he has a small group of young women who probably don't know what they are getting into until it happens.
It bothers me that they are teaching children in the monasteries because I don't think that young children belong in them. The last Buddhist group that I was in before this one had a young child there, and finally the parents took the child out, accusing them of molesting the boy. Whether that happened or not, I don't know, but young children are a temptation to these so-called celibate monks.
Maybe the reason it's difficult to find a discussion of the "Law of Inversion" is that these are secret teachings. or they were. It seems that some of them are becoming "declassified". In order to answer these questions, what we need is a tantric "Freedom of Information Act", ha.
But this "law of inversion" is something that is common to esoteric movements in other religious traditions. Gnostic Christianity practiced this (some, not all, of the groups, as did esoteric Judaism. (OK, give me time to find a link for that.) I don't think Thao was arguing anything here, I think that was just a snyde remark.
But there've been links posted to a discussion between western dharma leaders and HHDL. And in it, Stephen Batchelor expresses concern about a tradition that allows advanced teachers to behave outside generally accepted norms of behavior. The Dalai Lama says the idea of a "crazy wisdom" tradition a la C. Trungpa is "weird", but he defends the principles that are the basis for a distinction between mundane reality and enlightened reality. Batchelor says, that's a loophole that is potentially, and has been in the past, problematic.
Thanks for sharing your "homework", person. It makes for an enhanced discussion.
From what I've heard, teachers who tend toward the grey areas in the practice (to put it politely) hold up Milarepa as the quintessential example of a good student. He endured many hardships (which would be called abusive today), gave his wife and maybe his daughter as well, I don't recall exactly, to his teacher to please the lama, and so forth. He truly pledged his body, speech and mind to his teacher. But scholars say Milarepa's life story was a myth, a lot of that never happened.
I think it's probably possible to learn and practice the higher tantras without immoral behavior, without this "law of inversion". From what I read, the Taoists have a similar tradition aimed at cultivating spiritual awareness and bliss, but without the crazy stuff.
there's NO excuse for unethical behaviour in anyone, be it "brahmi" or not.
being beyond good and evil as an "understanding" of non-duality is just plain misguided.
WASHINGTON, (UPI) -- Sex between clergymen and boys is by no means a uniquely Catholic phenomenon, a noted American scholar said Wednesday -- it's been going on in Buddhist monasteries in Asia for centuries.
"Of course, this is against the Buddhist canon," Leonard Zwilling of the University of Wisconsin in Madison told United Press International, "but it has been common in Tibet, China, Japan and elsewhere."
"In fact, when the Jesuits arrived in China and Japan in the 16th century, they were horrified by the formalized relationships between Buddhist monks and novices who were still children. These relationships clearly broke the celibacy rule," said Zwilling, who has written extensively about this topic for more than three decades, and was one of the first to do so.
Sri Lankan children forced to become monks, endure abuse and manipulation in Buddhist monasteries
LankaNewspapers.com - Sri Lanka August 28, 2010
I am not aware of his doing something innapropriate to his wife or daughters. Some stories about towers and nettles. He is supposed to have had some very heavy karma but eventually became enlightened. He had nettles growing outside his cave and they stung him everyday. But he didn't cut them down he just walked through them every day. I forget why he did that. I think it showed something to him like that you cannot waste your time trying to make yourself comfortable rather he spent all his time meditating. He is also said to have drank nettles tea. Which I remembered that because I like nettles tea too!
But there is a link back to another thread on the first post of this one. You can try to follow? I don't agree that is true about the dalai lama.
I've been otherwise completely ignoring the threads on tantra in General Banter, but the idea of HHDL teaching people to give candy to children in order to have sex with them is just downright bizarre.
I did not post this with the intention of upsetting people or making anyone look bad. That is unfortunate. The intention was for everyone to bring their assumptions to light.
Unfortunately I am not sure how much we can accomplish. Because I cannot prove anything either way. I had hoped that someone would discredit the reasoning of compassionate warrior and Thao. From what I understand their sources suggest that this is true. So we need to examine how they got to that conclusion.
It isn't perfect, but I hope to make it better as time goes by.
not form the blah blaha books "wall of text"
from x book "wall of text"
from x book "wall of text"
I am talking a logic summary
Example
An apple is round
An apple is red
Round things can possibly be red
A cherry is red
A cherry could possibly be round
I mean the logical steps of what you are saying. Citations would be helpful but walls of text would not.
Without this I will not believe a word anyone @Thao and @compassionate_warrior have said.
The book that I have is The Commentary of the Kalachakra, and it speaks of visualizing fondling a 12 year old girl's breast in one of the early empowerments. The lama who wrote this book was a disciple of the Dalai Lama and had his approval to come to America.
To recap: The topic of this thread came about because Thao posted some material from a book called "Commentary of the Kalachakra Tantra", which isn't a commentary, rather, it outlines the rituals for the highest tantric initiations. The book seems to be a "Part II" for the Kalachakra, the esoteric side of the Kalachakra. These initiations involve tantric sex practice. The book says that young girls are used as consorts (brief quote, please?). Instructions for the rituals include how to get an unwilling consort to consent. The author of the book says he received all this information from the Dalai Lama.
Jeffrey started this thread to ask if the fact that the Dalai Lama taught these procedures means he advocates using girls in sex rituals, and enticing them into the procedure with candy or alcohol. (There was some confusion with a passage from another book, whose author, a former tulku, said candy can serve as an enticement .) I said (see post at top of thread) that I don't believe that HHDL performs these rituals, or ever has. As a result of some discussion on a related thread, and a statement from Stephen Batchelor (?) that this material was offered simply as a lecture on lineage tradition, as completion of teachings on the Kalachakra rituals, I said I thought the DL "taught" this material not to encourage the practices, but simply as information about obsolete practices that once had been part of the tradition. In the same way as an academic might teach about ritual in any culture.
Some aspects of this type of ritual are (or were) probably done by visualization. We don't know if anyone in the Gelug tradition still performs these initiations at all, and if they do, are they performed by visualization or with live consorts, and child consorts. All 4 of the main sects in TB have similar rituals, it's not just the Gelug, but Thao has found this Gelug text outlining hitherto secret rituals, so that's why we're discussing the Gelug tradition.
Does this help clarify things? AFAIK, no one is accusing HHDL of anything, other than orally transmitting a set or practices. I think Jeffrey was understandably alarmed by this material and some of the earlier discussion, so he posted this thread to clarify or to get opinions.