Celibate Adults

zombiegirl

in the tibetan buddhism threads, some members have said, "children should not be allowed around celibate adults." this seems an interesting comment to me because it seems to imply that celibacy is somehow wrong, that through celibacy, a normal person can develop harmful desires and tendencies (such as, child molestation).

i'm curious what others here think about celibacy in general. do you think celibacy can cause a person to become a pedophile? does something happen to a person when they abstain from sex, where they lose their normal sense of right and wrong?

compassionate_warrior

Institutionalized celibacy seems to be the problem, not individual (secular) celibacy. And part of the problem in the Buddhist world is that children are given to the monastery whether they have an interest in spiritual education or not, whether their character tends toward the compassionate or to the selfish. So many grow up in an institution they didn't want to be in in the first place, and they aren't suited to the monkhood. I think this is part of the problem.

But this has been a problem elsewhere, historically. The churches that ran Indian boarding schools in the US and Canada staffed the schools with monks and nuns in some cases, and there was sexual molestation of the children. Not institution-wide, but there were adults who would give in to temptation.

person

Yes, institutional celibacy is the problem. Its a rule impose from outside so an individual within that institution has to outwardly follow that rule but inwardly may have no interest in doing so. Since that is the case they want to find an outlet to have a sexual encounter in some way. If these people are around children this provides an opportunity to indulge in sexual behavior with the ability to use coersion to keep it secret and keep up outward appearances. So I don't think it has anything to do directly with being celibate, it has to do with a person who doesn't want to be celibate but is required to do so in their situation and ends up looking for a way to cheat the system.

zombiegirl

thank you c_w and person, this makes a lot of sense. i hadn't thought about forced celibacy.

i do wonder how this plays in with the catholic church scandal though. it is my understanding that most become priests by their own volition. it's really not the same situation as those being forced to become monks as children.

compassionate_warrior

That's a good question, zombiegirl. I haven't studied the Chatholic situation. All I can do is venture that some monks/priests can't hold to the discipline (I think it takes a spiritually gifted person to be able to do that, that's just my opinion), meaning maybe they weren't cut out for a celibate priesthood, plus it seems that there were higher authorities willing to turn a blind eye, thereby enabling the behavior. And maybe if word got around that there wouldn't be any consequences, or not serious ones, it encouraged others. And we don't know the extent to which professions like that attract pedophiles. I hope that's not the case, I'm just saying: we don't know if it's a factor.

zombiegirl

That's a good question, zombiegirl. I haven't studied the Chatholic situation. All I can do is venture that some monks/priests can't hold to the discipline (I think it takes a spiritually gifted person to be able to do that, that's just my opinion), meaning maybe they weren't cut out for a celibate priesthood, plus it seems that there were higher authorities willing to turn a blind eye, thereby enabling the behavior. And maybe if word got around that there wouldn't be any consequences, or not serious ones, it encouraged others. And we don't know the extent to which professions like that attract pedophiles. I hope that's not the case, I'm just saying: we don't know if it's a factor.

you make some good points here. if it were an option for catholic priests, i wonder how many would actually choose to become celibate. it would be nice if the church allowed the option for priests to have a family if they wished, but i find it rather doubtful that they would change centuries of tradition so easily.

compassionate_warrior

Yes, we MUST uphold the tradition! Even if it's falling apart, even if it causes problems, even if it doesn't make sense in the 21st century, the tradition must be upheld!

The Eastern Orthodox Churches have a very sensible policy; priests who minister to the public are expected to be married, so they can better relate to the reality of much of their "flock". They would be in a better position to counsel their married parishioners. Priests who minister to monks in monasteries are required to be celibate. If a monk breaks a vow, he does penance. There seems to be an "honor" system at work, that is absent in the Buddhist traditions.

Since the Orthodox are more conservative than the Catholics, I wonder how or why universal celibacy among Catholic priests got started?

Vincenzi

I'm sticking with the middle way... institutionalised celibacy isn't.
temporal celibacy in a specific period of time to focus on the path... that can be useful and nice.

zombiegirl

Yes, we MUST uphold the tradition! Even if it's falling apart, even if it causes problems, even if it doesn't make sense in the 21st century, the tradition must be upheld!

The Eastern Orthodox Churches have a very sensible policy; priests who minister to the public are expected to be married, so they can better relate to the reality of much of their "flock". They would be in a better position to counsel their married parishioners. Priests who minister to monks in monasteries are required to be celibate. If a monk breaks a vow, he does penance. There seems to be an "honor" system at work, that is absent in the Buddhist traditions.

Since the Orthodox are more conservative than the Catholics, I wonder how or why universal celibacy among Catholic priests got started?

we can joke about tradition, but it's still true. ridiculous or not, many catholics feel very strongly about their tradition in relation to other churches. when i think about those i have known who wouldn't even want to marry outside of their religion, it doesn't surprise me that a person inclined to study the faith would rather become celibate (even if they didn't wish to) than become a christian minister of another denomination.

i have no idea where it all started but i would be interested in finding this out as well.

and i agree with you Vincenzi. i prefer the middle path.

person

if it were an option for catholic priests, i wonder how many would actually choose to become celibate. it would be nice if the church allowed the option for priests to have a family if they wished, but i find it rather doubtful that they would change centuries of tradition so easily.

I think that people who enter the priesthood who have problems with celibacy may join because they want to serve God and take the celibacy just because its part of the package. It would be nice if they could marry.

Dakini

Yes, it would be nice if they had the option to marry. Maybe Federica can tell us why it is that the Catholic policy departed from the Orthodox in this regard. She has inside info up her sleeve, since she received a lot of Catholic history lessons in Sunday school.

In some Catholic countries, some choose the priesthood because it's a stable, paying career. It's an economic refuge, of sorts. But they're stuck with the celibacy. Or with having to make do with secret lovers and risk scandal.

robot

I believe that many choose to enter the priesthood with no intention of being celibate. Pedophilia has apparently been accepted or overlooked for centuries and so the priesthood may well be kind of a club for pedophiles. The residential school system in B.C. was a bonanza for perverts. Clearly the Catholic church has been forced to deal with the issue against its will. I don't think that celibacy will cause pedophilia. I could cause homosexual behavior I imagine.

vinlyn

Yes, institutional celibacy is the problem. Its a rule impose from outside so an individual within that institution has to outwardly follow that rule but inwardly may have no interest in doing so. Since that is the case they want to find an outlet to have a sexual encounter in some way. If these people are around children this provides an opportunity to indulge in sexual behavior with the ability to use coersion to keep it secret and keep up outward appearances. So I don't think it has anything to do directly with being celibate, it has to do with a person who doesn't want to be celibate but is required to do so in their situation and ends up looking for a way to cheat the system.

I would submit that institutional celibacy is still personal-choice driven. No one is forced to become a monk or priest. They choose it.

Vincenzi

@vinlyn

"No one is forced to become a monk or priest. They choose it."

tibetan children said otherwise.

vinlyn

@vinlyn

"No one is forced to become a monk or priest. They choose it."

tibetan children said otherwise.

True, but later, as an adult, they can leave. At some point it does involve choice. And, BTW, the vast majority of monks and priest in the world make their own choice.