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Thinking some more about this DZ teaching and whether I should consider it honestly. It occurred to me that this discussion is not off topic. So I will continue to politely reply to some of what Mujaku was promoting. And this is what my gut reaction is: I will provide space for any "revelation" to arise naturally, neither seeking it nor shunning it. If my original post is read again, I think anyone could see why I would have a natural aversion to any such teaching. It seems to me nothing more than a Buddhist version of a faith based religion. And I am not wanting to put faith in much of anything right now. However, in my ability to realize the truth when presented with it, I have total faith. And so I am assured of my own success and the success of each of you as well.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
These higher states are just like road signs, e.g., 20 miles to Nirvanaville.
I'm quoting from someone on another site, who related the anecdote that if you put people in a room with two doors, the first with a sign that says 'To Nirvana', and the second bearing a sign 'Instructions on how to get to Nirvana'.... most people would pick the second door.......
I'm quoting from someone on another site, who related the anecdote that if you put people in a room with two doors, the first with a sign that says 'To Nirvana', and the second bearing a sign 'Instructions on how to get to Nirvana'.... most people would pick the second door.......
Funny we should complicate the concept of "a blowing out, extinction." It must be the most simple term we know.
Yoga Mama,
I see what you mean, but if you will notice I mentioned that already. If I were to be disruptive and cause problems, then it is another story. What about having a thread specifically about this topic? That way it is including the person. I know that many people areTheravadan, Zen or other schools of Buddhism and we get along just fine. It seems this topic is a bit volatile for some. I'm just trying to offer a solution to the problem not increase it.
If I remember correctly, his bringing up this topic had nothing to do with the original stated one "I suffer from PTCD and PTNAD". I thought we were going to talk about those of us on the site who had been in other religions or systems of thought and how we are working through it. I don't see where talking about the validity of a school of thought has anything to do with it.
Just my two cents worth.
""You may be missing the notion of the path. It is liberation from suffering. Being incarnated is suffering; rebirth is suffering, etc. That which is getting bound down (nidana) in the carnal has to reverse itself or experience, as a consequence, unending suffering (the samsara). These higher states are just like road signs, e.g., 20 miles to Nirvanaville. ""
I thought you were saying that the "higher states" were the poison pill.
The "suffering that leads to good results" the "craving for enlightenment". IMO these will take care of themselves, just fall away like an old shoe if they are sincere and intense.
Anyway, the "20 miles to Nirvanaville" thing sure doesn't fit with anything that can be recalled.
Much as see your point Frizzer, I'm also all too aware of how the handful of Dark Zen Wannabees operate, including AE and meaningful discussions were tried in the past in several places but found not to work.
Are you serious? 'Meaningful discussion' is really a code word for my sect is right—screw yours. Such discussions can't even manage coalescent argumentation as Michael Gilbert lays it out in his fine book, Coalescent Argumentation (1997). The moderator(s) excludes views not in accord with his own sect's view of Buddhism.
Gilbert notes:
Coalescent Argumentation is a normative ideal. It involves the joining together of two disparate claims through recognition and exploration of opposing positions. By uncovering the crucial connection between a claim and the attitudes, beliefs, feeling, values, and needs to which it is connected, dispute partners are able to identify points of agreement and disagreement (p., 102-103).
It is not about winning arguments. Gilbert says it is very seldom that an opposer is brought around to the pov of the proponent. It is really about uncovering our goals, i.e., "why are we arguing?" When we know each other's goals, it becomes easier to adjust to differences without having things go awry. In other words, there is a need to clearly understand another's position. It then becomes possible to even merge positions. But it takes some work and a deeper familiarization with each other's terminology.
WickWoman,
I am asking honestly. How is it not off topic?
It's my thread! Ha ha. Just kidding.
I was just thinking how ironic that somebody came along offering us the opportunity to obtain enlightenment of a different sort in a thread specifically aimed at discussing the way I roll my eyes at such topics. And when people so vehemently claim their way is the only way and make claims that they have a "more advanced" version of something, an "exclusive" approach that's supposed to make us all wish we could join the club, I just have serious fundamentalist flashbacks. What about you?
I'm keeping my "don't know mind" as long as I can. I'm told it's a good place to be.
Funny we should complicate the concept of "a blowing out, extinction." It must be the most simple term we know.
I think of it as not the blowing out of our precious life, for life is undying. Nirvana is about the extinction of that which causes us suffering and rebirth (i.e., craving materializations).
He who lays down the heavy burden not grasping any other, having erdicated craving, being without desire, he has reached parinibbuto (i.e., highest Nirvana). — S, III, 26
I think of it as not the blowing out of our precious life, for life is undying. Nirvana is about the extinction of that which causes us suffering and rebirth (i.e., craving materializations).
I suspect that pursuit of this form of enlightenment will cause me much suffering/inherent disatisfaction. I have just been freed from that sort of suffering. Now I am offered a new way to suffer. How ironic.
I'm just going with the literal translation of the word. Am I missing something there?
Where no[temporal] thing is, where no grasping is, there is a transcendent (anâpara.m) light where decay and death are no more. This I declare to you is nibbana. Sn 1094
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I suspect that pursuit of this form of enlightenment will cause me much suffering/inherent disatisfaction. I have just been freed from that sort of suffering. Now I am offered a new way to suffer. How ironic.
Actually Buddhism is the product of sheer genius; yet it is quite simple (notice I didn't say simplistic). All these words are just saying to you, "See that which animates you, it is undying and who you really are. Just don't get attached to what is animated."
But here is how it gets complicated. Someone asks, "Well, is what animates you animal, vegetable or mineral? And how tall is it; and how much does it weigh?"
The dharma obtained by me is profound, of deep splendor, difficult to see, difficult to understand, incomprehensible, having the incomprehensible as its scope, fine, subtle, the sense of which can only be understood by the wise. -- -- Catu.spari.sat Sûtra
Seriously, I did have a moment of "Fundy" flashback, but then there are so many people on this site from different schools of thought in Buddhism that it does balance itself out. I did notice that some people who are trained bristled immediately. Not that training means they are right, but they do know a bit more than I do. I don't know about DZ, SG, or Nichiren but as schools of thought that are questionable in Buddhism. I've seen this other places than NewBuddhist.com, so it isn't just following the learned for that point. I haven't really investigated it as it didn't seem to be something that would be helpful.
I know this might sound simplistic, but I really only care about knowing the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path and how to implement them into my life. I'm not sure of rebirth or enlightenment. Karma does make sense to me as a "cause and effect" idea. As I've mentioned, when someone starts mentioning other things that are things they believe, that is their right.
I can see where you would see that it would get you out of the fundy mindset to search other schools of thought. I may in a few years if I am well grounded in the basics. But trying to learn the basics of Buddhism seems to be more important to me than any esoteric school of Buddhism.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I know this might sound simplistic, but I really only care about knowing the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path and how to implement them into my life. I'm not sure of rebirth or enlightenment. Karma does make sense to me as a "cause and effect" idea. As I've mentioned, when someone starts mentioning other things that are things they believe, that is their right.
I can see where you would see that it would get you out of the fundy mindset to search other schools of thought. I may in a few years if I am well grounded in the basics. But trying to learn the basics of Buddhism seems to be more important to me than any esoteric school of Buddhism.
You said this: "Maybe we should give this gentleman his own thread to state his views. That way a banning wouldn't be necessary and those who care to discuss it with him can. But then it might not work. He/she could go onto other threads to speak their views."
How about if there was a "Jerbear's Views" thread and you could ONLY express your views there. What would you do on ALL the other threads?
My apologies. I originally thought that YogaMama made these comments. Then I thought that would be nothing like her and checked it out. It is Kowaatia who deserves credit for this.
Those who see
What moves my figer are astonished.
They see what the Buddha transmitted—
They see what picked up Bodhidharma's feet
And what he brought to China!
P. S. That's not his finger. It what he looks like. Weird eh?
Hey Kowtaaia,
I had never seen your posts that I remember. If I have said hello before, please forgive me. I am on a few narcotic pain killers and forget things at times. I just thought "I don't know this person. What's up?".
As is known on this board, I'm openly gay so I would be the last person to say "Get on the back of the bus". Heck, I'm not even allowed on it except here at NB.com and a few other sites. But since were good, cool. So, how's your practice going?
Those who see
What moves my figer are astonished.
They see what the Buddha transmitted—
They see what picked up Bodhidharma's feet
And what he brought to China!
Progress is a wonderful thing
Now we have poop scrapers
And wonder no more what is left on our shoes...
I can see where you would see that it would get you out of the fundy mindset to search other schools of thought. I may in a few years if I am well grounded in the basics. But trying to learn the basics of Buddhism seems to be more important to me than any esoteric school of Buddhism.
Oh no. You misunderstand me. I find the whole esoteric realm totally irrelevant in my life. I have reduced my thinking to the most pragmatic possible all the while still retaining some sort of structured belief system. I have no intention of setting myself the lofty goal of attaining some "other worldly" state of existence. As I was saying to AE, I will make the ground of my mind fertile for whatever real thing wants to spring up there. Past that, I have no intention of pursuing some other brand of Buddhism. The original brand is good enough for me.
How wonderful to know the state of another's understanding!
And how wonderful of you to assume that I don't! If, for example, you saw a man selling golden statues who was in poverty, it would not be a major feat of ESP to know something is deeply wrong with him.
If they had known what
Moved them to the master's gate
They would not have journeyed so far.
And still they persist being foolish
Trying to find mind in a set of robes—
Tending to pious outworn rituals.
Comments
I'm quoting from someone on another site, who related the anecdote that if you put people in a room with two doors, the first with a sign that says 'To Nirvana', and the second bearing a sign 'Instructions on how to get to Nirvana'.... most people would pick the second door.......
Funny we should complicate the concept of "a blowing out, extinction." It must be the most simple term we know.
Funnier still, to turn a fact into an idea.
I see what you mean, but if you will notice I mentioned that already. If I were to be disruptive and cause problems, then it is another story. What about having a thread specifically about this topic? That way it is including the person. I know that many people areTheravadan, Zen or other schools of Buddhism and we get along just fine. It seems this topic is a bit volatile for some. I'm just trying to offer a solution to the problem not increase it.
If I remember correctly, his bringing up this topic had nothing to do with the original stated one "I suffer from PTCD and PTNAD". I thought we were going to talk about those of us on the site who had been in other religions or systems of thought and how we are working through it. I don't see where talking about the validity of a school of thought has anything to do with it.
Just my two cents worth.
I am asking honestly. How is it not off topic?
I thought you were saying that the "higher states" were the poison pill.
The "suffering that leads to good results" the "craving for enlightenment". IMO these will take care of themselves, just fall away like an old shoe if they are sincere and intense.
Anyway, the "20 miles to Nirvanaville" thing sure doesn't fit with anything that can be recalled.
Are you serious? 'Meaningful discussion' is really a code word for my sect is right—screw yours. Such discussions can't even manage coalescent argumentation as Michael Gilbert lays it out in his fine book, Coalescent Argumentation (1997). The moderator(s) excludes views not in accord with his own sect's view of Buddhism.
Gilbert notes:
It is not about winning arguments. Gilbert says it is very seldom that an opposer is brought around to the pov of the proponent. It is really about uncovering our goals, i.e., "why are we arguing?" When we know each other's goals, it becomes easier to adjust to differences without having things go awry. In other words, there is a need to clearly understand another's position. It then becomes possible to even merge positions. But it takes some work and a deeper familiarization with each other's terminology.
It's my thread! Ha ha. Just kidding.
I was just thinking how ironic that somebody came along offering us the opportunity to obtain enlightenment of a different sort in a thread specifically aimed at discussing the way I roll my eyes at such topics. And when people so vehemently claim their way is the only way and make claims that they have a "more advanced" version of something, an "exclusive" approach that's supposed to make us all wish we could join the club, I just have serious fundamentalist flashbacks. What about you?
I'm keeping my "don't know mind" as long as I can. I'm told it's a good place to be.
I think of it as not the blowing out of our precious life, for life is undying. Nirvana is about the extinction of that which causes us suffering and rebirth (i.e., craving materializations).
I thought that was enlightenment?
Not according to the Lotus Sutra. It is just skillful means (upaya). One has to move on. The real goal is to become a Buddha.
Where no[temporal] thing is, where no grasping is, there is a transcendent (anâpara.m) light where decay and death are no more. This I declare to you is nibbana. Sn 1094
Which is, to "be awake" ie, enlightened.
QED.
Actually Buddhism is the product of sheer genius; yet it is quite simple (notice I didn't say simplistic). All these words are just saying to you, "See that which animates you, it is undying and who you really are. Just don't get attached to what is animated."
But here is how it gets complicated. Someone asks, "Well, is what animates you animal, vegetable or mineral? And how tall is it; and how much does it weigh?"
Yikes
Awake to what?
Seriously, I did have a moment of "Fundy" flashback, but then there are so many people on this site from different schools of thought in Buddhism that it does balance itself out. I did notice that some people who are trained bristled immediately. Not that training means they are right, but they do know a bit more than I do. I don't know about DZ, SG, or Nichiren but as schools of thought that are questionable in Buddhism. I've seen this other places than NewBuddhist.com, so it isn't just following the learned for that point. I haven't really investigated it as it didn't seem to be something that would be helpful.
I know this might sound simplistic, but I really only care about knowing the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path and how to implement them into my life. I'm not sure of rebirth or enlightenment. Karma does make sense to me as a "cause and effect" idea. As I've mentioned, when someone starts mentioning other things that are things they believe, that is their right.
I can see where you would see that it would get you out of the fundy mindset to search other schools of thought. I may in a few years if I am well grounded in the basics. But trying to learn the basics of Buddhism seems to be more important to me than any esoteric school of Buddhism.
YOU AND ME BOTH!! :rant: :cheer: :bowdown:
May I recommend " The Ragged Trousered Philathropists" by Robert Russell.
HH
My apologies. I originally thought that YogaMama made these comments. Then I thought that would be nothing like her and checked it out. It is Kowaatia who deserves credit for this.
I try to find something nice to say to everyone. I really like your avatar. Very funny. By the way, which finger? Remember, be nice!
What's the book about? I'm curious. But then I am an avid reader.
We're good.:)
P. S. That's not his finger. It what he looks like. Weird eh?
Those who see
What moves my figer are astonished.
They see what the Buddha transmitted—
They see what picked up Bodhidharma's feet
And what he brought to China!
I had never seen your posts that I remember. If I have said hello before, please forgive me. I am on a few narcotic pain killers and forget things at times. I just thought "I don't know this person. What's up?".
As is known on this board, I'm openly gay so I would be the last person to say "Get on the back of the bus". Heck, I'm not even allowed on it except here at NB.com and a few other sites. But since were good, cool. So, how's your practice going?
Progress is a wonderful thing
Now we have poop scrapers
And wonder no more what is left on our shoes...
Zenmonk doesn't understand what was transmitted. He is still too attached to the burden.
Same here. :cool:
How wonderful to know the state of another's understanding!
Oh no. You misunderstand me. I find the whole esoteric realm totally irrelevant in my life. I have reduced my thinking to the most pragmatic possible all the while still retaining some sort of structured belief system. I have no intention of setting myself the lofty goal of attaining some "other worldly" state of existence. As I was saying to AE, I will make the ground of my mind fertile for whatever real thing wants to spring up there. Past that, I have no intention of pursuing some other brand of Buddhism. The original brand is good enough for me.
And how wonderful of you to assume that I don't! If, for example, you saw a man selling golden statues who was in poverty, it would not be a major feat of ESP to know something is deeply wrong with him.
If they had known what
Moved them to the master's gate
They would not have journeyed so far.
And still they persist being foolish
Trying to find mind in a set of robes—
Tending to pious outworn rituals.