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I Suffer from PTCD and PTNAD
Hi. I'm Wickwoman and I'm a skeptic. It's been 40 years in the making but I find myself firmly planted in the soil of "I doubt it." I suffer from two syndromes: Post Traumatic Christianity Disorder and later Post Traumatic New Age Disorder. This is how it happened.
I was born into a fundamentalist evangelical religion - Assembly of God which is of the Pentacostal, tongue talking, Hellfire and brimstone preaching, gay bashing variety. When I became old enough to know better I set out on my journies. During which time I visited Episcopal and Catholic land, Unity Land, Unitarian Land, Wicca Land, Astrology Land, until I landed at Zen land.
I've found Zen to be the most pragmatic of the Buddhist traditions. But I've not studied them all, so that may be incorrect. But, I will say we have a non-denominational Buddhist center in town that frequently brings teachers from a variety of sects and Buddhist denominations and I am ashamed to admit, for the most part, I thought the discussions were a lot of fluffy and pretty words. :mean:
It seems I've reached a place in my life where one must prove his or her "authenticity" with some sort of credentials. If I read a book I want it to be either 500 years old or based on a writing that is.
When members of my Zen group speak of meditation experiences of seeing lights or feelings of spaciousness or feelings of "oneness with all that is," I find myself with a strong urge to roll my eyes. Isn't that horrible? But, somewhere along the way, I became a skeptic and I'm wondering why.
Is it because I've not experienced anything "other worldly" in my limited meditation experiences over the last 1 1/2 years? Or is it I have fears of falling back into some new age fluff? Have I traveled this far from the restrictions of my evangelical Christian upbringing to become a new kind of curmudgeon?
I'm hoping this is a good sign of some sort of progress. Because formerly I was easily swayed by any new idea or doctrine. The only requirement was that it be other than Christian. But, now, I am finding that there are so many things that people speculate about and talk about because it's what we people do. But, what of those things we think we know, are true? I just don't know for sure. There are lots of things these days I would like to believe, but very few I do.
I was born into a fundamentalist evangelical religion - Assembly of God which is of the Pentacostal, tongue talking, Hellfire and brimstone preaching, gay bashing variety. When I became old enough to know better I set out on my journies. During which time I visited Episcopal and Catholic land, Unity Land, Unitarian Land, Wicca Land, Astrology Land, until I landed at Zen land.
I've found Zen to be the most pragmatic of the Buddhist traditions. But I've not studied them all, so that may be incorrect. But, I will say we have a non-denominational Buddhist center in town that frequently brings teachers from a variety of sects and Buddhist denominations and I am ashamed to admit, for the most part, I thought the discussions were a lot of fluffy and pretty words. :mean:
It seems I've reached a place in my life where one must prove his or her "authenticity" with some sort of credentials. If I read a book I want it to be either 500 years old or based on a writing that is.
When members of my Zen group speak of meditation experiences of seeing lights or feelings of spaciousness or feelings of "oneness with all that is," I find myself with a strong urge to roll my eyes. Isn't that horrible? But, somewhere along the way, I became a skeptic and I'm wondering why.
Is it because I've not experienced anything "other worldly" in my limited meditation experiences over the last 1 1/2 years? Or is it I have fears of falling back into some new age fluff? Have I traveled this far from the restrictions of my evangelical Christian upbringing to become a new kind of curmudgeon?
I'm hoping this is a good sign of some sort of progress. Because formerly I was easily swayed by any new idea or doctrine. The only requirement was that it be other than Christian. But, now, I am finding that there are so many things that people speculate about and talk about because it's what we people do. But, what of those things we think we know, are true? I just don't know for sure. There are lots of things these days I would like to believe, but very few I do.
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Comments
That's good! Beware of too much talk and not enough action.
I'm re-reading "A Glimpse of Nothingness" by JanWillem Van de Wetering, where the author is bugged by a woman who keeps talking about colored lights. "SHIT woman! Leave me alone with all your lights. All I want is enlightmentment." Upon overhearing this exchange, the master smiled his approval.
...
Oh, that sounds like a good book. How old is it?
A Glimpse of Nothingness, 1975
Oh good. I don't feel so bad now. I will say I do experience either my heart that seems to be pounding in my chest during meditation (not too fast just physically noticable when it's normally not) or a feeling that seems to hinge from my chest of a subtle bodily revolution of sorts.
O.K., now it's your turn to roll your eyes.
Thanks. I'll check it out.
I feel like I've just found my long lost twin.
-bf
Awwwwwwww. *sniff* Big hug!
My glass of water is always "almost gone!"
-bf
The first experience is not uncommon at all. Is there any anxiety when you feel this? As to the second, can you describe it in a bit more detail?
Hmmm. A real monk at my disposal. I have so much to ask you . . .
Seriously, thanks for asking. The first is not related to anxiety though sometimes I do have a feeling of doom I cannot connect to anything. Sort of like the world is about to end. And the second feeling, feels sort of like a circulation counter clockwise somehow centered in the chest but involving the whole body. But the actual movement is either non-existent or just very slight. It is more of a feeling of movement. As I am consciously not wanting to move and disturb those meditating around me.
Once when meditating I noticed tears falling but I did not have a sad feeling or any feeling connected to it. It was almost a surprise that they were there. It was when I heard a little girl that one of the Zen members brings with her from time to time saying "bye bye Buddha" on her way to her car. She's a really cute little girl. It was interesting to cry, not realizing I was crying.
Meditation as you know does change heart rate, blood pressure and so forth. I would keep an eye on this though in case it's any sort of indicator of high blood pressure.
Often meditation does release energy, sometimes huge amounts of it, and this is done in the body. There's nothing supernatural about it, after all if energy was previously tied up in thoughts and emotions and then those emotions and thoughts are not indulged in to the same extent, there's bound to be more energy available to the whole body/mind and this can manifest in just the way you describe. Also, and particularly with regard to your crying, meditation does release emotion and physical manifestations of those emotions. That doesn't necessarily mean that we will feel sad when crying for example, because these might well be long repressed or unfelt emotions that are released when we put less effort into trying to 'hold it all together'. I hope that this makes sense? It sounds as though you're noticing these things but not seeking them particularly, which is the best way to be with them. One can let these things come up and open to them and let them run their course, and this can result in a lightening and 'cleansing' of the whole body/mind that is hard to explain, but instantly recognisable by anyone who has themself experienced something along the lines that you have.
I was reading an article the other night about Soto Zen vs. Korean Zen which is the tradition I loosely follow. I find the Korean Zen a bit too ritualistic, especially the prostrations which I've avoided thus far. I guess I'm so conditioned by my past religious affiliations that I am very resistent to any sort of stringent or inconvenient practices or behaviors that seem to be dogmatic. How would you compare Soto Zen to Korean Zen with that in mind?
After that I promise to stop asking questions, I think. . .
I was bluffing.
The nearest temple to me, where I am at the moment, is one from the Korean tradition. I found very little difference in the practice, apart perhaps from Korean Zen being a little more devotional in some respects, the chants being in Korean and English, rather than Japanese and English, the monks Kesas, or outer robes are much more practical, and there a lot more prostrations - One hundred and eight to be exact, every morning. I found the prostrations to be an excellent practice though. They really are a good way for me to practice wholeheartedly giving myself to the moment. This may not be the case for everyone but one thing I would point out is that many of the elements of the form in practice are either to simplify things or to bring up our resistances and shine some light on them. Prostration done this way can do exactly this - bring up our ideas, our resistance and enable us to work with them, or work through them.
Whether we like prostrations, or agree with them isn't really the issue. It's not about brainwashing ourselves though or demeaning ourselves, which it may well feel like at times, especially as we take it on as a new practice. After all, what we have to go on is our previous experience, where such things as devotion and ritual were all about something outside of ourselves, something better and somehow more worthy of respect than ourselves.
Whilst there is a seed of truth in such practice, in that life, reality, is bigger than us, we are part of that life, it cannot be separated. There is no Buddha outside of our own life and when we can give ourselves to prostrations, we have the opportunity to realize in our bodies that the one prostrating and that which is prostrated too are not two separate things. Buddha bows to Buddha. You'll also have thighs of steel, which of course is the most important point of prostrations.
LOL, is there something wrong with asking questions? As a matter of fact, your post has prompted me to take up doing the one hundred and eight prostrations again, so thank you for that. This link may also be of interest to you:
Gassho and Bowing
O.K. this is all good info. I am satisfied for now. Thanks so much for the help!
Ch'an master Tsung-mi, who wrote the Ch'an Preface (avaliagble in dissertation form) was adamant that experience had to accord with scripture. Experiences, he said, which are without scriptural basis, we can never know if they are true or false.
Sitting meditation is not an important part of Zen. Those who tell you otherwise have no basis of proof.
Zen, first, is about achieving higher states of mind called dhyana. But more, Zen is about attaining prajna. Prajna is the ability to distinguish between our true Buddha-nature and the illusory five aggregates consisting of form, sensation, concepts, experiences, and consciousness.
All of the five aggregate phenomena belongs to Mara the Evil One (Jap., Makyo = devil-phenomena). In the Shurangama Sutra there are enumerated 50 false enlightenments, 10 for each of the five aggregates.
You DO know that first quote in your post is from a Zen monk, right?
"Sitting meditation is not an important part of Zen. Those who tell you otherwise have no basis of proof."
Huh? Are you serious or is this just a joke? I don't get it.
As a fellow skeptic and sufferer of PTCD, please question all you can. One of the things that attracted me to Buddhism is what the Buddha said. "Come and see" not "Come and believe". There are things that some Buddhists believe that I don't, some alot of what I don't, and that's okay. They have the right to believe what every they want as they are fellow sufferers. If it doesn't lead to enlightenment, they will figure it out sooner or later.
As for bows (which those of us physically challenged do) or prostrations, I tend to look at it as a practice for mindfulness. In order to take the Buddhist precepts at my temple, they ask that you do 3,000 prostrations or bows before you take them. It is supposed to be to the 1000 Buddhas of the past, 1000 in the present, and 1000 in the future. Not sure what I think of it but most likely not anything on the scale of what Gautama Siddhartha obtained if it is real. It truly does teach one persistence and how to slow down. I don't think bows do much for the thighs, but the prostrations might.
As for those physical feelings, it would be very wise to have it checked out. That is something that I would check out if a patient told me it was going on in the ICU. It might not be anything physical, but why wait?
By the way, I was a "charismatic". It was pentecostal lite, that told you to add "Jesus loves you. Come on in and learn to act like us.............or we'll start judging accordingly".
BLUE CLIFF RECORD CASE 3
Dainin Katagiri Roshi - Divers in Emptiness
And will they send us a postcard...?
This is better than desperate Housewives - !!
Quite serious.
Some Zen sects market, at least these days, ideas and practices which have no central basis in the history of Zen. The two that come to mind are the Zen lineage and sitting (silent illumination).
There is an excellent dissertation on Chan Buddhism in the Song-dynasty (960-1279), by Morten Schlutter, which goes into a great deal of detail about "silent illumination" (the sitting school).
Hongzhi was the main creator of this approach. Dahui who was of the Rinzai tradition thought silent illumination to be heresy. I can share Dahui criticisms of silent illumination with you, one of which was that sitting is quietistic which aims to suppress thought. Dahui said they (who sit) misunderstand enlightenment; who firmly believe there is no need to really seek enlightenment.
I think for anyone on the Buddhist path, practicing Zen, they need to be aware of some extreme differences schools have from other Zen schools (= tsung, which can also mean "realization"). Take the example of koans. The Chinese method popularized by masters like Dahui doesn't have answers like the Japanese system. The Japanese system is so misguided it seems not to have a clue as to what wato or ante-word means in the koan method.
The teacher of Dahui explained it all, that is, how koans work. Also, the method is explained in the The Blue Cliff Records (Trans. Shaw). Apparently some the Japanese don't get it (some kewl dudes do 'get it' on the island of Shikoku). BTW, you can buy a book with the answers to the Japanese koans. It was first published by a Zen master who got tired of the Zen games. Its original title was, Gendai Sojizen Hyoron translated, A Critique of Present-day Pseudo-Zen. The English translation is entitled, The Sound of the One Hand by Yoel Hoffmann.
I hope people will not be angred by this post. There is too much 'marketing' going on in Buddhism these days which, sad to say, glosses over the problematic side of Zen.
My advice is if I sound like it, I should be banned from NewBuddhist.com. You can get a petition going and have the moderator give me the boot. Then of course, you can use the ignore option this forum provides. But that might not eliminate the anger towards me (one of the Three Poisons).
This, I sadly observe, goes along with smear politics and the Big Brother mentality we are presently witnessing in American politics which is danger to the world.
The meditation I usually recommend for those of this disposition, who don't like the facts, is to do the following:
Put your fingers in your ears and say, real loud, "LALALALALALALALA--I AM NOT LISTENING TO YOU--BUG OFF!!!"
I don't know of anyone being banned from here and I believe that no subject is taboo (SGI, NKT, DZ, etc).
Personally I don't agree with the banning of certain traditions on other sites. By banning it rules out the opportunity to have meaningful discussions with members of these groups.
Well, yeppers it does. KWATZ!!!
Yes. Though I was fitting the "mold" quite nicely, some family members were not. A gay niece, an agnostic husband. Though, surely I would make it to Heaven, it was little comfort, knowing those I cherished would supposedly burn eternally at the hands of a God who obviously didn't love them the way I did. I choose, with my stubborn chin held high, every day not to believe it. Even if it IS true, it does not benefit me to believe it. For given the choice I will go to Hell with my loved ones. At least I could hope to be of some comfort to them there. Heaven is no Heaven with the knowledge that those you love are tortured at your benefactor's hands.
You are a gas. Just because someone knows that you are full of it doesn't imply any anger.
Much as see your point Frizzer, I'm also all too aware of how the handful of Dark Zen Wannabees operate, including AE and meaningful discussions were tried in the past in several places but found not to work.
Hopefully we won't see the first NB.com banning though.
A.E. Hollingsworth AKA Zenmar
Have a google for "Dark Zen"
-bf
I am all for this gentleman's right to speak his mind. If it disrupts the rest of the cnversations on this site, then it becomes a problem.
Frizzer,
I agree. If a site says that it welcomes all, then that is what it should do. How is one supposed to know just what is going on if you cannot converse with members of these groups? :scratch: I get really aggravated at those who arbitrarily dismiss those of a different belief. :banghead: As adults, we are all old enough to decide just what is right for ourselves or not. Just because I heard some stories or other stuff second-hand about a group does not mean that they are wrong or that their belief is not valid. Just because the belief is not right for you does not automatically make it wrong or unacceptable. I don't accept what I hear, read, or am told regarding anything because I prefer to make these types of decisions firsthand. There is always the chance of those people who have an "axe to grind" or just wish to be spiteful to a group or organization that will say negative things about that particular group or organization. I do not believe that groups or beliefs that victimize minorities, those of a different race or national origin, or children should be accepted or tolerated---that's just wrong in my opinion.
Adiana:wavey: :usflag:
You said this: "Maybe we should give this gentleman his own thread to state his views. That way a banning wouldn't be necessary and those who care to discuss it with him can. But then it might not work. He/she could go onto other threads to speak their views."
How about if there was a "Jerbear's Views" thread and you could ONLY express your views there. What would you do on ALL the other threads?
If you wish me to go over page by page of Katagiri's book, Returning to Silence, showing you that the Buddha never taught such nonsense, let me know when you are ready to use the frontal lobe (page 27 of his book). I will make quick work of our late and dear friend who has silently returned to the carbon cycle.
CAUTION: READ CAREFULLY. NOT RECOMMENDED FOR IMMATURE MINDS.
Not all matters of Buddhism are so black & white. Some craving, although unwholesome, is necessary.
In the Nettippakara.na, we also have:
You may be missing the notion of the path. It is liberation from suffering. Being incarnated is suffering; rebirth is suffering, etc. That which is getting bound down (nidana) in the carnal has to reverse itself or experience, as a consequence, unending suffering (the samsara). These higher states are just like road signs, e.g., 20 miles to Nirvanaville.