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Hi there,
I am new here,i really am interested in buddhism i have read a few books on it already and i am actually using mindfulness in my day to day life dealing with emotions etc,my question for people is how do i follow buddhism when i am a primary producer,i breed cattle and lambs?,i have children and my husband is a farmer as well, i cant see a way out of this as this is our livelehood,I realize you would say find an appropriate job that doesn't break any rules but my husband would not ever leave this industry,what would you suggest,is it o.k for me to follow the teachings even though i would be offending those of you who follow the rules of not being associated in an industry that raises animal for meat?,obviously i couldn't call myself a buddhist but would it be offensive if i were to use some of the teachings for my and others benefit?,or should i just back out all together.Sorry to be a pain.
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My teacher made a nice comment on that in a newsletter sort of deal of questions and answers with students.
If I could remember all the arguments I'd break it all down for you but I can't recall so I am going to cut and paste. Let me know what you think. I am curious how it would be. You are not different from others I mean I eat cattle so I am in part to blame.
A student writes:
"Some time ago I wrote to you about vegetarianism or not in the Buddhist lifestyle. Your response to that I think was really that one had to make up ones own mind, with due consideration and then carry on. At the same time I think you were saying that essentially people change as their practice deepens.
At the start of my studies with you I sailed happily into buying a farm with my partner, to set in place a retirement programme. We both view the place as a retreat for ourselves, and hopefully as time goes on, for others also.
Meantime, we were considering the working options and beef cattle seemed to be the way to go for a number of reasons. We now have 10 Belted Galloways and their calves and are learning so much more about herd interactions and mutual care for each other.
We both are wondering how on earth we can choose which animals will be sent for slaughter, But at least the calves have had a life and the herd is on open paddocks and not feed lots.
I see so many hypocrisies, I'm afraid I feel I need to use that word, in saying that to eat meat is acceptable if it has not been killed at your behest�. the industry only exists because it knows that the product is requested by the community.
And if I refuse to eat meat, how do I justify the use of so many end products, all the leather goods and other many things using animal products.
Do vegetarian Buddhists also refuse to use any of those items? For the most part I see a lot of leather shoes."
Lama Shenpen:
Some vegetarians Buddhist or otherwise go that far - I suppose one could look for cows that die naturally and use their skins for leather. Also if one wants to argue that way, using animal products from cows means that cows are kept and give birth to males that are not wanted and then slaughtered. So you could argue it causes suffering to use milk products and so on.
To be honest I feel this is not a battle I personally feel like taking on. The danger with being high minded in this way is that one becomes very attached to concepts and one becomes judgmental and frustrated without in fact helping any beings directly.
If it were a matter of there being no cows in the world and a cow having to be brought into existence to feed my need for milk and then if that led to a male calf being killed then it would be a different matter and a different problem. But it's not like that. If many people stop eating meat and animal products then less animals are reared and killed. That is good - but I don't think if I sometimes eat meat that is already killed it is going to make any difference to the world.
On the other hand, I could think that it doesn't matter if it doesn't make much difference to the world, because the important thing is to dedicate the punya from making my vow to not eat meat and to keep that vow has a spiritual or karmic benefit that outweighs all practical considerations - then that is wonderful and it is a really good thing to take a vow like that and to keep it. I encourage that.
I must say I find it quite difficult to go along with a kind of gung-ho I love meat mentality as if there was nothing distasteful at all about eating meat. I think this does add to the number of animals being kept and killed and is somehow coarse.
But if people really do suffer from not eating meat (which some people claim) I am not going to judge them - its their choice and their karma. The animals are dead already - so better they are eaten than simply wasted.
As for keeping animals for slaughter - well, I must say I wouldn't like to have to do that. I think of that each year when I see the lambs and calves so sweetly nuzzling up to their mothers and feel so sad - they love each so much - the mothers and their babies. I couldn't bear to part them and take them off to be slaughtered. It is so sad.
But for farmers not to do that so many things have to change. I hope they will over time. I love to see the animals in the fields and I don't know whether it's worse not to live at all in this world or to come and leave again so swiftly - it cannot be good karma for farmers to send them off to slaughter year after year. Samsara is such a sorry place!
But in your situation I think having gone this far you will be limited in the choices you can make. I think it's good to think in terms of not being engaged in this industry any longer than you have to - but in the meantime you can pray hard for the animals that you keep and at least this way their life becomes meaningful and you are making good karma to compensate for the bad.
"On top of that, I see a lack of clarity over the killing if insects in the commercial production of vegetarian food - thousands for every item."
Lama Shenpen:
That is true. That is why it's not good to get self righteous about being vegetarian. It's part of what it is to be in samsara for our lives to involve us in bad karma whatever we do. Every animal is host to many other beings too - so whatever we do we end up taking the lives of many other beings.
In the end we just have to choose our battles carefully and lead as harmless a life as we can without getting self righteous and judgmental about it in situations where that is not going to save lives or save anyone from suffering.
It is a very difficult area and we don't want to be hypocrites and to have double standards. The whole area is a very messy one and it's important to turn towards it. It has bothered the Buddhist tradition for centuries.
There are sutras in which the Buddha speaks out against meat eating but in the stories of his life and the lives of his great disciples it is clear that they ate meat if it was offered.
In Vajrayana Buddhism in order to cut through our concepts about not wanting to eat unclean food we have to eat meat - it should actually be the kind of meat we think of as impure but usually we use meat that is quite nice and to our taste - which seems to go against the principle - but then we read of many enlightened masters who became enlightened through practising in this way.
I don't know what to make of that. I cannot help suspecting they became enlightened in spite of eating meat rather than because of eating meat. Many eminent Tibetan Lamas are now speaking out against meat eating and encouraging their students to take a vow against it. I am glad they are doing this. I took a vow once but then Khenpo Rinpoche told me to start eating meat again so I did.
Now I try to only eat it when offered and try to always choose non-meat options. I am not always completely consistent about this I have to admit. I am not proud of the fact but it does seem to cheer up the meat eaters to see me do this. I don't know what to make of that really. Would it do more good to show more moral fibre? I am not sure. If I were sure I would be much more consistent.
Student:
"I feel confusion over Karma. I know that it's a complex area but surely these creatures have been born as food beasts or beasts of burden."
Lama Shenpen:
Yes there is that - so maybe they are the farmers who took the lives of animals in their past lives. There is not much comfort in that really is there?
Student:
"When my time comes it comes. So for them, and also a release and a chance to have a more fortunate rebirth?"
Lama Shenpen:
Well there is that - and since that is the situation you are in this is the best way to think.
It is good to do practices specifically for purifying the bad karma you make as you engage in this form livelihood - like meditation on love and compassion and repentance generally for being trapped in samsara from the bad karma accumulated in past lives as well as this.
Also making pranidhanas for their happy rebirth and to be able to help them follow the Dharma in their future lives and so on. You can recite lots of mantras for them so that the sound of Dharma touches them.
the Mandala of Awakening.
SO you can feel happy about that. Very happy!
It is really good for them that they have a strong connection with you. You can help them in a way nobody else can. You are their connection with
Welcome on the forum! First thing I would like to say -and this is quite important- there are no strict rules in Buddhism. For example, the precepts are just practices supporting our development. The Buddha talked about skillful livelihood, but what that is for us at the moment, is up to us to decide. No good Buddhist will judge you for what you do for a living and they will not be offended in any way.
The Buddha also ate meat sometimes, as long as he did not kill the animal himself or it wasn't especially killed for him. Eating meat is not the same as killing animals, neither is raising animals the same as killing them. What is important with the practice is intention. If it is your intention to do your job just so animals can get killed, that's not such a good intention. But if you do it to support your family, that's a different story.
I think you will be able to practice Buddhism very well within your current situation. But you have to decide. We always have our own responsibility. If you feel like you can't do it, than you may have to find something else. It's up to you.
Sabre
Thanks again Lyndall
Your post was wonderful and refreshing. Thank you for your help.
There is no action, no lifestyle, no belief system or hope that does not carry with it the potential for harm. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. If you want to look at it that way, the air I breathe in this very moment is air denied to other sentient beings.
Buddhism is a living thing. It is not just idealistic flimflam. If you pay attention and take responsibility within the actual circumstances of your life, if you correct what mistakes you make, if you stop imagining something or someone else could make things 'better,' if you examine the very place where you stand ... then I think you could easily qualify (assuming you want to) as a Buddhist. You could also qualify as a decent human being ... which, in the end, is really quite enough.
Best wishes in your efforts.
Your question is understandable. There is no such thing as a person who is unwelcome to buddhism. You might grow and shed some actions, or feel moved to do something different, but your buddhist practice is between you and your choices from moment to moment.
You already strike me as a loving and curious person, and starting a meditation practice and listening to or reading some dharma talks will only amplify those wonderful qualities. Which, no matter where you work, will improve the world for you, your family, the farm, and us all. How could that be anything but beautiful?
With warmth,
Matt
I would love to change our cows to milk but we live in a marginal area with not a great deal of rainfall which is needed for high grass growth to feed lactating cows,we just wouldn't be viable to switch to milk production unfortunately,there was a few years ago one local dairy farming family and they couldn't afford the feed for the cows and infrastructure as well,they now run just beef cattle too.
I will take up the suggestion Matt of listening to some Dharma talks and meditation like you say this will all help me.
I have another question if you are willing to read on about what direction to take with my sister in law?.We had lunch with her and her husband Sunday which was lovely,she has been with religion all her life shes 63 now,she now belongs to an evangelistic group which her husband introduced to her when they got married,they are nice people but they are always trying to save me from going to hell apparantly!,i have told her that i respect her beliefs and i have been exploring Buddhism as i feel this is helping me a great deal in understanding alot of things in my life and others and i have told her i don't think a loving god if there was one would condemm a basically good,kind hearted person to hell,but according to her it's not enough to just be a good person you have to have the spirit of the lord and accept him or bad luck more or less?.
I have pondered on this and cannot find any logic in my mind to believe this would be right,i'm afraid i just don't get what they are on about!.They have invited us to one of their church gatherings with a speaker coming to talk to their congregation on sunday about how to no longer worry about the future, but i really don't want to go nor do i want to offend her,my thoughts are to live in the present then you have no worry!,what are your thoughts on this,how do you tell someone quit trying to convert me without being disrespecfull of their beliefs?.I feel i am more than liberal with my acceptance of other beliefs,my kids actually go to the local lutheran kids for christ gatherings because they enjoy it etc with their school friends,but i feel i am having views pushed on me i don't want.Thanks for reading.
Lyndall
The need to have others agree with my personal beliefs in order for those beliefs to have validity is a sure sign that I am not yet entirely certain of my own beliefs, whatever they may be. It is pleasant to be among those who agree and support, perhaps, but to rely on others as a means of gauging the truth is a clear indicator of doubt and a clear invitation to disappointment. No Christian (or Buddhist either when starting out) would concede that their 'good works' are an indicator of doubt. Their imagined virtues exceed their willingness to investigate and find out. In this sense, virtue is a wonderful encouragement but, in the end, a terrible barrier.
You cannot reason with mosquitoes. You cannot suggest that if you and I go to a restaurant, neither of us criticizes or tries to improve the other's choice from the menu. You cannot argue that if you choose spaghetti and I choose eggs, both of us get nourished ... and we can have a pleasant conversation over perfectly good food. Mosquitoes are hellbent on their own directions and those directions include my blood ... which I am not always willing to share.
Well, I seem to be prattling on. Basically, you have to make up your own mind ... which you knew all along, right? There is no right and wrong. There is choice. As to attending an evangelical get together, I received a joke-y email yesterday that suggested that one of the ways to maintain a healthy degree of insanity in your life, "5. Five Days In Advance, Tell Your Friends You Can't Attend Their Party Because You Have A Headache." We may laugh with understanding at such a suggestion, but it also suggests a serious degree of frustration with mosquitoes who refuse to accord to us what we may accord to them -- a willingness to listen, if not agree.
"I'm sorry -- I can see what you are trying to say, but I don't entirely agree and I hope you will acknowledge my point of view as I will try to honor yours." And/or, if all else fails, "Piss off!" There are probably diplomatic shades of grey in all this and you will have to decide which shade suits your purposes.
Whatever the decision, I hope you will not think you are alone. During mosquito season, everyone gets bit.
If she will not stop trying to convert you, it will be that disrespectful drive inside of her that offends her, not your polite response. If she had the habit of beating her head against the side of your house, would you tear down the house to "keep her safe"?
Just ask nicely for her to stop and don't argue belief... just ask her to respect your free will and the boundry. If she can't, her bruised head is from her unskillful insistance, not you or your choices.
Good luck!
metta
Everyone has made mistakes and has cause for regret. But to recognize such things and refrain from doing them again is a cause for gratitude, not suppression. Correct what you can and be aware of what you can't...and don't bother hoping you will get some ethereal pat on the head for either.
So to condemn the nature of human beings, like the man is doing, is somewhat unskilful from a Buddhist perspective.
Whilst just about most of what the man has to say is argueably "true", the Buddhist approach is basically people believe what they believe and we should accept others have the right the believe as they wish.
Kind regards
this is one of the more "grey" areas of Buddhism. why? because Buddhism encourages non-killing and encourages not earning a livelihood by raising animals for slaughter, however, Buddhism does not encourage the non-consumption of meat
the Buddha consumed meat given to him and most monks, most notably the Dalai Lama, consume meat
in countries such as Thailand, where there are many fisherman, the monks are generally not critical of such livelihood and try to forster the view that fishermen are earning a living for their families
from the viewpoint of reality, beings consume other beings for their survival and this reality can be a harsh & sad but inevitable reality
in Australia, semi-arid lands unfit for agriculture are used to raise large quantities of beef cattle. if such quantities of beef where to be replaced by agricultural produce then, imo, this would probably result in more destruction of forested lands for agriculture
although I myself am mostly vegetarian, apart from consuming tinned fish, i personally struggle to see how the vast humanity could survive exclusively on agricultural produce
i can imagine how sending the animals you have raised for slaughter could be quite depressing but such saddness also reflects the many sad realities of life
thus Buddha taught life is imperfect, with many inevitable sufferings
so if you cultivate a sad & tender heart but understand life's realities, this may help you
kind regards
DD