Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
What are your personal thoughts on Enlightenment? What do you think it actually is??
zenmyste
Veteran
Do you think its something where one is in complete BLISS every single minute of every single day??
Or is it just more of an 'ahhhh ok i get it now' kind of thing...
Do you believe like ZEN it can be achieved in any moment?
And if someone is enlightened does that mean he never argues with anyone. or stands up for what he believes in?
what if a person murderd his wife or friend...would he not get angry???
of course i think they still would. my view of enlightenment is just understanding life. understanding things the way they are. But this doesnt mean we wouldnt still feel emotions. We would just know why we feel the way we do.
I think its impossible NOT to feel love, joy, anger, hate etc etc....whether enlightened or not..
ZEN SAYING: ''before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment, chop wood carry water''
i love it.
what are your thoughts on enlightenment?
regards to all.
Or is it just more of an 'ahhhh ok i get it now' kind of thing...
Do you believe like ZEN it can be achieved in any moment?
And if someone is enlightened does that mean he never argues with anyone. or stands up for what he believes in?
what if a person murderd his wife or friend...would he not get angry???
of course i think they still would. my view of enlightenment is just understanding life. understanding things the way they are. But this doesnt mean we wouldnt still feel emotions. We would just know why we feel the way we do.
I think its impossible NOT to feel love, joy, anger, hate etc etc....whether enlightened or not..
ZEN SAYING: ''before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment, chop wood carry water''
i love it.
what are your thoughts on enlightenment?
regards to all.
0
Comments
Enlightenment is a being who embodies infinite potential and infinite expression. Thus one is free from everything (thoughts, emotions, etc). That does not mean one avoids these things. In actually one feels such things even more fully, but since there is a radical awareness, one just accepts it all...and naturally like all things they arise and fall.
So there is the non dual awareness and then the realization of the emptiness of all things. Then realizing there is only truth. And then realizing how this truth functions in such world. For most people it is a sudden awakening and gradual cultivation.
So in one sense one is already enlightened and one is unenlightening themselves in every moment. Just seeing, tasting, hearing, smelling, feeling, and thinking = buddha.
But don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself.
I believe this saying is talking about the functional self. Obviously, we cannot ignore what needs to be done. You can't say "I'm enlightened, therefore I do not need to wash dishes". Well... then you have nothing to eat on. Some things still need to be done regardless of enlightenment.
The quote doesn't say "before enlightenment, get angry and hate others; after enlightenment, get angry and hate others"
We learn about equanimity and the five hindrances and samsara and dukkha for a reason. Perfect cultivation of equanimity would be not to hate even the person who killed you. After all, your life is impermanent and death its certain end.
I don't know why you say "complete BLISS" when it's just happiness in every moment. "complete BLISS" has the connotation of sensory ecstasy to me, that's all. Happiness connotes something entirely different to me. It connotes satisfaction, fulfillment, contentment, peace, sound.
to me, this Zen saying is so ridiculous. after enlightenment, the view of the world and of life will change profoundly
that is why it is call 'enlightenment'. when the buddha gained enlightenment, in his first sermon, he said his mind discovered and experienced things never experienced before
sure, you will eat everyday and take a bath everyday but these things are not really important
The only difference is that grasping has ceased.
As the Zen Patriarch said: "The Supreme Way is not difficult, when one does not pick and choose, Neither love nor hate, and you will clearly understand"
.
>>>Do you think its something where one is in complete BLISS every single minute of every single day??
More like "equanimity", IMO.
>>>Do you believe like ZEN it can be achieved in any moment?
Yes.
>>>And if someone is enlightened does that mean he never argues with anyone.
Depends on what you mean by "argue".
>>>or stands up for what he believes in?
They would stand up for what they believed in if it was appropriate to do so.
>>>what if a person murderd his wife or friend...would he not get angry???
No they wouldn't.
>>>of course i think they still would. my view of enlightenment is just understanding life. understanding things the way they are. But this doesnt mean we wouldnt still feel emotions. We would just know why we feel the way we do.
I think its impossible NOT to feel love, joy, anger, hate etc etc....whether enlightened or not..
Emotions that arise from grasping and aversion simply would not arise to begin with.
>>>what are your thoughts on enlightenment?
Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water (plus carrying all that other nonsense in your mind) After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water (minus all of that nonsense).
This is one of my favorites. Me too This is one of those phrases that I thought was ridiculous when I first heard it. Kind of like when my mom told me that some of the other girls at school were only mean to me "because they were jealous." Now I realize they are both right. Whenever I am complaining about someone, I realize in retrospect that I am hating the part of them that I also hate about myself... or secretly wish I had. I personally like it because it brings me out of my lofty ideas and back down to why I am practicing-- to enjoy daily life, even the chore parts. If I become enlightened, and suddenly my basic needs no longer need to be met, I'll let everyone know how it feels. :nyah:
How you pamper yourself even alone, you pamper others unconditionally, a peaceful in emptinessly calm, as the everything and every emergence is non other than from your mind of tranquility. :thumbsup:
I doubt I will get there, but I am sure I wont stop trying.
Oh Calamity!
I reckon it is.
In order to “wake up”, we have to stay mindful. It is with this mindfulness that we keep the mind grounded in the present moment for the purpose of awakening. The desire for awakening is not such a bad thing, because it is a desire which brings about the cessation of dukkha (stress, suffering, etc). Awakening is the destination, the “other shore”, and mindfulness keeps our focused attention on the path towards awakening - rather than being distracted from it.
The development of mindfulness is fourfold as it involves contemplation of the body, contemplation of feelings, contemplation of the mind, and contemplation of mental qualities/mind phenomena. This leads to investigation and eventually a sharp analytical knowledge of the Dhamma, which will bring about the mental qualities or properties of energy or persevering effort and happiness/joy/rapture. Of course, this leads to the calm and tranquility of the body and mind. With this, one develops a concentrated mind which sees things as they really are, resulting in equanimity. This equanimity is neutrality, or a mental equilibrium rather than indifference. Being awakened means discerning from what is skillful and unskillful. Is arguing skillful? Is it a debate, or is it really a verbal attack?
Anger usually does more harm than good, usually to the point of being "blinded by rage". Would a clear, concentrated mind know what would be in one's best interest rather that one being overwhelmed with anger, frustration, or fear? You can not win with anger. If you killed the person who killed your best friend - would you still go to prison for it if you were caught? Reproach will not solve anything - it will not bring back friends and loved ones. It can only do more harm than good. It is only by enduring it with a sense of good will for all, including the offender, that one will ever see the benefits of a truly positive response. Yes, it is understanding. However, its not just the "why", its also the "how". If you know why and understand how you are having these conditioned emotional responses, then perhaps you could have more control over them - even to the point of their complete cessation.
In regards to seeing yourself in others etc that's not correct as there is no self nor other. In reality, while experiencing them, they are all there is of you. Literally. This needs to be realised non conceptually though.
There is also no possibility of somebody killing your wife as there is no you, no wife, and nobody to kill anybody nor anybody to die.
For the moon in the water.
Until death overtakes him
He'll never give up.
If he'd let go the branch and
Disappear in the deep pool,
The whole world would shine
With dazzling pureness.
Hakuin
don't know - you know?
I believe that when the Buddha said that he doesn't have anything secret, up his sleeve, all the cards are on the table, he meant it.
I believe that when he said that interdependence was the hardest deepest part to understand, he meant that too:)
I believe it seems reasonable to expect the buddhist orthodoxy would not want a doctrine that had a mundane and obtainable goal.
I believe that a buddhist orthodoxy would not want a central tennet the principle of the questioning of orthodoxies, lineages, teachers, authorities, doctrines......
Enlightenment is not at all mundane, and it is an extremely literal term. It is to merge with the Light surrounding and beyond all, and those manifesting enlightenment both manifest that Light and are themselves a manifestation and extension of that Light, in addition to being engulfed by it.
It is a state very much beyond what we are now, and very much beyond the dead, but visible at the point of death... where the astounding awesome interdependence of all also begins to become visible. At least that was what I observed the last time I died, and also with a near death experience in this life.
Always compassionate though... ALWAYS! Man, I've got a lot of work to do.
Just a good selling point for spiritual teachers (keeps people donating to monasteries, sells books, etc..)
So it is not true that buddhas only become enlightened serving others..Buddha only served others AFTER his enlightenment..
A sportsman who wants to win really badly will choke.
But you have to be motivated to train hard & play hard.
One of the obstacles to jhana is 'wanting' it.
I think it's a lot about the view..... right view applied on daily lives... impermenance and emptiness, karmic connection, etc. and from this wisdom the mind is liberated from attachment due to false view.... a liberation from ignorance where the positive attachment (greed) and negative attachment (hatred) is no longer relevant... but the mind have to be so focus that we are in such wisdom throughout the day. and the feeling is full bliss where the mind is totally liberated.
that's my opinion.
maybe there's more
My personal opinion on this is that the point is not enlightenment or not enlightenment but chopping wood and carrying water. And that is enlightenment. It's like this for me; when I meditate, I am not meditating...when I am just sitting, I am meditating. I don't think that being anything is really possible.
enlightenment is a western term.