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Consciousness without surface (outside space and time)
I guess I don't like lineages attacked because then it turns into one person attached to abstract notions about which lineages are good and which are bad. And the recipient of the shellacking gets to deal with their attachment to their whole schema supporting their buddhist practice.
Gaskets can blow Don't the students in the debates in the monastery have extensive training not available to 'new buddhists'. I think 'debate' can rapidly turn into hurt feelings or junior high or even into a cross between kindergarten and an outhouse should it get that far :buck:
Yes, lol, I see your point. I definitely was not saying that Trungpa was not Buddhist, he most certainly was.
Pema is very tender for wounded people and she gives sound teaching for dealing with negativity in a courageous way while introducing buddha teachings. I like those qualities.
Rigdzin Shikpo is interesting I've just read a chapter. He is my teacher's husband a mathematician. So far he seems rather gritty but the chapter I read was about suffering! So who knows.
I like Trungpa's writings, and of course I enjoy my teacher and she has a connection to Trungpa through her husband and a contact I guess not sure of the relationship between them.
Pema is very tender for wounded people and she gives sound teaching for dealing with negativity in a courageous way while introducing buddha teachings. I like those qualities.
Rigdzin Shikpo is interesting I've just read a chapter. He is my teacher's husband a mathematician. So far he seems rather gritty but the chapter I read was about suffering! So who knows.
I like Trungpa's writings, and of course I enjoy my teacher and she has a connection to Trungpa through her husband and a contact I guess not sure of the relationship between them.
Cool. Yes, my mother really likes Pema. I really like my mother. LOL!
I've heard a lot of controversy surrounding Rigdzin though. Not to say I automatically believe any of it! Of course.
lol it helps to have a long sword. i hold onto no view, thus i can accept all views.
but looks like i'm getting fat. so it's time to cut the fat.
Oh, the Beer is making you fat? Um... sorry... totally lost on the side commentary here.
Well, eventually you're going to want to find a view, in Buddhism, "right view" is the first of the 8 fold path. It's specific as well, though of course flexible to a degree, it's not rigid, but it kind of is at the same time, it's quite focused and nuanced, as well as free and liberating. Oh lord... English. I swear this is my first life in the West. LOL!
Right View in Buddhism is like being free from views, while having a particular view that is very grounded and nuanced, as well as sophisticated, but... without self. It's like a view without essence.
I agree that it would probably be a view indeed, but I don't know exactly what it is. My teacher says that it shakes our ordinary way of being. So if you don't feel a huge shakeup, and we all feel to some extent I think, then the full deepening of the view hasn't occured?
i think consciousness without feature must be realized.
it sure as hell makes meditation and realizing such truths much easier. also it makes the mind into a very useful tool.
but again these are just my observations. emptiness/interdependence is something i've been playing with for the past couple years. for me the non dual awareness made all of this much more clearly.
it's all about working out the kinks and studying the different traditions to get a nice big picture. FUN STUFF!
A thought- if something is outside space and time, how is it able to interact with space and time?
That's an interesting question. I suppose the answer will depend on how one understands what is meant by space and time, e.g., as things or as points of reference. For example, in one essay about what the attainment of nibbana mean in terms of the living experience of one who's reached the final goal, Lily de Silva writes:
A plausible explanation is necessary for the traditional silence regarding the state of the arahant after death. Existence in the world implies time and space. One exists within a particular period in a particular space or locality. If one passes beyond time and beyond space, it is not possible to speak of existence with reference to such a one. To speak of both time and space one needs a point of reference, e.g. A is 50 years old. This means 50 years have passed since the event of A's birth. If A is not born, it is impossible to speak of "time" or existence with reference to him. Similarly with space. Without points of reference it is not possible to grasp space. There is a definite distance between any two specific points. Nor can one speak of direction without a point of reference. When the notion of "I," which is the point of personal reference, is eradicated, one goes beyond time, beyond space, and beyond causality. Therefore it is not possible to speak of the liberated being as existing or not existing.
Traditionally, this has been understood in Theravada as meaning that consciousness ceases or 'goes out' at death, just as a fire ceases or goes out when it runs out of fuel, and there's no consciousness component in parinibbana after the death of an arahant. But this seems to be in direct contrast to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's note to DN 11; although he, too, seems to view space and time more as reference points:
Viññanam anidassanam. This term is nowhere explained in the Canon, although MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud 1.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud 8.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time. The standard description of nibbana after death is, "All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here." (See MN 140 and Iti 44.) Again, as "all" is defined as the sense media, this raises the question as to whether consciousness without feature is not covered by this "all." However, AN 4.174 warns that any speculation as to whether anything does or doesn't remain after the remainderless stopping of the six sense media is to "objectify non-objectification," which gets in the way of attaining the non-objectified. Thus this is a question that is best put aside.
But to be honest, I don't see how any sort of consciousness can be untouched by death (as in awareness not ceasing completely) unless perhaps consciousness itself is somehow fundamental to the basic structure of the universe or something. Of course, I've seen nothing in the suttas that gives this impression beyond the vague imagery of consciousness that "does not land or increase" mentioned in SN 12.64.
Lately, however, I've been content with viewing nibbana as the extinguishing of greed, hatred and delusion (SN 38.1), consciousness without feature as the living arahant's consciousness devoid of defilements and non-attached to any phenomena whatsoever, and leaving it at that. In fact, I think Bhikkhu Nanananda sums it up well in "Nibbana Sermon 07":
Now viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ is a reference to the nature of the released consciousness of an arahant. It does not reflect anything. To be more precise, it does not reflect a nāma-rūpa, or name-and-form. An ordinary individual sees a nāma-rūpa, when he reflects, which he calls 'I' and 'mine'. It is like the reflection of that dog, which sees its own delusive reflection in the water. A non-arahant, upon reflection, sees name-and-form, which however he mistakes to be his self. With the notion of 'I' and 'mine' he falls into delusion with regard to it. But the arahant's consciousness is an unestablished consciousness.
We have already mentioned in previous sermons about the established consciousness and the unestablished consciousness.[ix] A non-arahant's consciousness is established on name-and-form. The unestablished consciousness is that which is free from name-and-form and is unestablished on name-and-form. The established consciousness, upon reflection, reflects name-and-form, on which it is established, whereas the unestablished consciousness does not find a name-and-form as a reality. The arahant has no attachments or entanglements in regard to name-and-form. In short, it is a sort of penetration of name-and-form, without getting entangled in it. This is how we have to unravel the meaning of the expression anidassana viññāṇa.
i think consciousness without feature must be realized.
it sure as hell makes meditation and realizing such truths much easier. also it makes the mind into a very useful tool.
but again these are just my observations. emptiness/interdependence is something i've been playing with for the past couple years. for me the non dual awareness made all of this much more clearly.
it's all about working out the kinks and studying the different traditions to get a nice big picture. FUN STUFF!
@taiyaki I certainly agree! I studied Taoism, mystic christianity of different branches, kabbalah, hinduism, sufism, jainism, various shamanisms. It's all food for the fire my man!! Definitely fun stuff!!! Never give up!
nah, that will be the arupa-jhana of infinite consciousness... consciousness without feature is a description of nirvana.
Ok, that's a point there, unless one is thinking that it's consciousness without the boundary of a concept of infinitude as well? Than I guess without feature would be without boundary as well. I mean, to me infinite includes the finite, so it's not a dichotomous ideation.
do you remember another description of nirvana, the one that it is as being free from a weight... the "features" in consciousness is this weight... anything that produces dukkha.
i understand nirvana as free from dukkha because we stop grasping. in the madyamaka teachings of the mahayana dukkha is not real.. the occurence of dukka is due to a misunderstanding..
If dukkha were real then the self experiencing dukkha would have to be real.
This may be offtopic; I was following Vajarahearts and taiyaki's comments on emptiness. Could emptiness be defined or looked at as the emptiness of an intrinsic personal identity? I would contend we have an "I" in a conventional sense but this "I" is dependent upon the interelation of the body and mind, causes and conditions and as such this conventional "I" is everchanging. I would also suggest, from my limited understanding, that emptiness is impermenance with another name. All the best, Todd
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
This may be offtopic; I was following Vajarahearts and taiyaki's comments on emptiness. Could emptiness be defined or looked at as the emptiness of an intrinsic personal identity? I would contend we have an "I" in a conventional sense but this "I" is dependent upon the interelation of the body and mind, causes and conditions and as such this conventional "I" is everchanging. I would also suggest, from my limited understanding, that emptiness is impermenance with another name. All the best, Todd
I think thats right, its my understanding at least.
"Nagarjuna's life comprised three great periods of auspicious deeds that correspond to Buddha's three turnings of the Wheel of Dharma; which is why he is often referred to as 'the Second Buddha'. The first period was during his tenure as Abbot of Nalanda. Unfortunately, the moral discipline of the monks had degenerated since the time of Buddha first gave vows, and Nagarjuna was very active in restoring the purity of the discipline. He clarified many points of moral discipline in extensive teachings, and composed a number of works on pure conduct. These writings, known as the Collection of Advice, include such works as Precious Garland, Friendly Letter, Tree of Wisdom, A Hundred Wisdoms, and Drops for Healing Beings. These activities are likened to Buddha'a first turning of the Wheel of Dharma."
We have a self that is empty of inherent existance,that is not the body or mind and certainy can't be separate from the body and mind. Could we not conclude that this "self" is just a component of the thinking mind? That this is a concept cobbled together from memories, causes and conditions, and ideas. That this intrinsic self has no existance whatsoever? I would still maintain we have a conventional "I" that is dependent upon the interelation of the body and mind, causes and conditions and is everchanging. This "I " is impermenance itself and cannot be regarded in any kind of fixed or set way. I would also regard everything in the same fashion. All the best, Todd
Dzigar Kongtrul says that its as if a phantom is doing things.. the dishes get done the laundry, but we don't really know what we mean by a self.. its confused we say I am sick.. but then we say the sickness isn't me which is what a sick person experiences when it is chronic and they are dealing.
The title of this OP.."Consciousness without surface (outside space and time)" is referring to another form of consciousness that I'm not aware of. The only consciousness that I am aware of is conditioned in the realm of the living self, and is subject to clinging. "Awareness without surface (outside space and time)", sounds more appropriate to me. The consciousness that I know of is this:
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
santhisouk I think that indeed it is a different view of consciousness than the senses and mind consciousness. Remember that the dharma is not always definitive. In some cases it is provisional and in need of judgement interpretation and correlation with life.
Thus both views of consciousness are mental masturbation if they don't correlate to life.
Vincenzi, it depends what one means by emptiness of self. I think nagarjuna was proposing a contradiction to refute someone elses understanding. Your interpretation does sound like it makes more sense. I cannot fit your statement into nagarjuna's rubric:
emptiness of inherency implies something inherent to be empty of? That is not a very strong compelling statement.
(I'm agreeing with you that stuff was hard to word unconfusing for me)
making up emptiness of emptiness is a weak argument for emptiness.
No, it just means that emptiness is also empty of inherent substance, that it too is dependently originated. Of course, that should be obvious, but subtly... it might not be.
Vincenzi, it depends what one means by emptiness of self. I think nagarjuna was proposing a contradiction to refute someone elses understanding. Your interpretation does sound like it makes more sense. I cannot fit your statement into nagarjuna's rubric:
emptiness of inherency implies something inherent to be empty of? That is not a very strong compelling statement.
(I'm agreeing with you that stuff was hard to word unconfusing for me)
A lot of his stuff was meant for use in debate. This it can be seemingly over stringent for someone who is already a Buddhist.
Comments
Rigdzin Shikpo is interesting I've just read a chapter. He is my teacher's husband a mathematician. So far he seems rather gritty but the chapter I read was about suffering! So who knows.
I like Trungpa's writings, and of course I enjoy my teacher and she has a connection to Trungpa through her husband and a contact I guess not sure of the relationship between them.
I've heard a lot of controversy surrounding Rigdzin though. Not to say I automatically believe any of it! Of course.
Well, eventually you're going to want to find a view, in Buddhism, "right view" is the first of the 8 fold path. It's specific as well, though of course flexible to a degree, it's not rigid, but it kind of is at the same time, it's quite focused and nuanced, as well as free and liberating. Oh lord... English. I swear this is my first life in the West.
The fat would be like getting a new perm and new power tools.
it sure as hell makes meditation and realizing such truths much easier.
also it makes the mind into a very useful tool.
but again these are just my observations. emptiness/interdependence is something i've been playing with for the past couple years. for me the non dual awareness made all of this much more clearly.
it's all about working out the kinks and studying the different traditions to get a nice big picture. FUN STUFF!
Lately, however, I've been content with viewing nibbana as the extinguishing of greed, hatred and delusion (SN 38.1), consciousness without feature as the living arahant's consciousness devoid of defilements and non-attached to any phenomena whatsoever, and leaving it at that. In fact, I think Bhikkhu Nanananda sums it up well in "Nibbana Sermon 07":
I certainly agree! I studied Taoism, mystic christianity of different branches, kabbalah, hinduism, sufism, jainism, various shamanisms. It's all food for the fire my man!! Definitely fun stuff!!! Never give up!
Otherwise you have to accept that the consciousness without features is also manifest before enlightenment while the mind is stained with the poisons.
If dukkha were real then the self experiencing dukkha would have to be real.
and yes, it isn't an essence...
All the best,
Todd
thanks
@The swing is yellow
emptyness is used in the description of anatta:
the self is empty of inherent existance (no essence, it isn't eternal nor atomistic).
Nagarjuna and later thinkers took the term, isolated it... and then put it on a pedestal.
"Nagarjuna's life comprised three great periods of auspicious deeds that correspond to Buddha's three turnings of the Wheel of Dharma; which is why he is often referred to as 'the Second Buddha'. The first period was during his tenure as Abbot of Nalanda. Unfortunately, the moral discipline of the monks had degenerated since the time of Buddha first gave vows, and Nagarjuna was very active in restoring the purity of the discipline. He clarified many points of moral discipline in extensive teachings, and composed a number of works on pure conduct. These writings, known as the Collection of Advice, include such works as Precious Garland, Friendly Letter, Tree of Wisdom, A Hundred Wisdoms, and Drops for Healing Beings. These activities are likened to Buddha'a first turning of the Wheel of Dharma."
He was very clear which is why he proposed the emptiness of emptiness as well.
Nagarjuna was not trapped, he saw the middle way. His teachings are very sophisticated though. I can understand misunderstanding them.
All the best,
Todd
Which is a flaw of conceptual view :mullet:
Dzigar Kongtrul says that its as if a phantom is doing things.. the dishes get done the laundry, but we don't really know what we mean by a self.. its confused we say I am sick.. but then we say the sickness isn't me which is what a sick person experiences when it is chronic and they are dealing.
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.003.than.html
emptiness of self is nonsense.
Thus both views of consciousness are mental masturbation if they don't correlate to life.
emptiness of inherency implies something inherent to be empty of? That is not a very strong compelling statement.
(I'm agreeing with you that stuff was hard to word unconfusing for me)