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Anyone can become enlightened without Buddhism right?? What do you think of Eckhart Tolle?

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Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I have a tendency to try to one-up people I try to restrain hostility as unconstructive
  • I think its reasurring to hear that someones ideas have credentials in scripture.. At the same time if they cannot express ideas in their own words they may be quoting the scripture in the wrong context of the situation, not bridging to the reader or situation, quick fixing, and so forth.
    This is one thing I noticed about Pagels. You have to have a Bible handy, so you can look up her references, because she doesn't quote whole passages. I haven't always been able to find her references.

  • cw that phenomenon eixts also in real life sanghas unfortunately
  • edited July 2011
    cw that phenomenon eixts also in real life sanghas unfortunately
    You mean that one know-it-all dominates the proceedings? I haven't run into that, fortunately. It really does spoil the fun, doesn't it? Takes the enjoyment out of participating in the community, whether it's online, or in person.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I don't mind a spectrum of people participation levels, but I think you are pointing to something that is regretable, compassionate warrior
  • Well, it always tickles my irony bone when "advanced practitioners" of Buddhism behave like jerks, lol ! It almost sounds funny, but it's a pain to deal with.
  • cw that phenomenon eixts also in real life sanghas unfortunately
    You mean that one know-it-all dominates the proceedings? I haven't run into that, fortunately. It really does spoil the fun, doesn't it? Takes the enjoyment out of participating in the community, whether it's online, or in person.
    entire sanghas can also succomb not just individuals

    and yes it is definitely supposed to be fun
  • @GuyC- Thank you so much for taking the time to give a well thought out, clear answer. Are you a teacher? If you are, your students are indeed fortunate. :)
  • lol--I didn't know there was any doubt Mary Magdalene was one of the Apostles! I guess I've been reading the wrong books.
    CW- I was raised Catholic. The idea of a woman succeeding their master probably didn't sit well with the boys club.

  • edited July 2011
    Yeah, that's probably why the Gospels got edited. But that was the radical message of Jesus' ministry: no discrimination of any kind.

    So kayte, as a former Catholic, how did you relate to eating Jesus' flesh and drinking his blood? Didn't that seem strange to you?
  • edited July 2011
    CW, that is really a good question. My Catholic days go way back to a time of uniforms, women having to wear veils in church, Latin, nuns clad in black habits (who could wield a yardstick like a samurai). You get the picture. So as a child, I took it very seriously and was afraid of chewing the wafer because it would hurt him. Silly, I know. As I grew up I was less and less inclined to receive communion because my faith was waning and it all seemed ridiculous to me. I no longer believed in the sacrament. I didn't see any improvement in people who supposedly had a "piece of the savior" inside them. Empty ritual for all except those who really tried to honor it through their behavior.

    I find it to be an outdated and distasteful carryover from the old rituals that demanded blood sacrifice.
  • Eating a chunk of the savior was supposed to magically transform someone into a good person? Or have an influence? I've never heard this before. And you thought that chewing on "Him" would hurt him--that's great! very logical for a child! Funny how people just swallow (no pun intended) whatever ritual and it's meaning that they're told, without questioning it. It never occurred to you, "eewww, ick! Why are we doing this cannibalism thing?" I guess maybe that's something an outsider would see. When you're an insider, you suspend judgment and disbelief.

    Yeah, that's the conclusion we came to, is that it's a holdover from the days of blood sacrifice. But then one member came up with another explanation, which I find fascinating: it's part of an old Middle Eastern belief that eating a bit of flesh of your spiritual guide links you psychically with him when he's away. I've never heard that before, but I think there's something to it.
  • I looked up Tolle on Wiki. Impressive. He sounds like the real deal, if everything they say is true. There are exceptional individuals on the planet. Discerning the fakes from the real deal is the trick. Has anyone here ever been in Tolle's presence, or heard him speak?
  • DaozenDaozen Veteran
    Mr Tolle has introduced many non buddhists to quasi buddhist ideas.

    His style doest appeal to me, but I feel that on balance he has introduced many people some helpful skills and concepts.
  • edited July 2011
    I looked up Tolle on Wiki. Impressive. He sounds like the real deal, if everything they say is true. There are exceptional individuals on the planet. Discerning the fakes from the real deal is the trick. Has anyone here ever been in Tolle's presence, or heard him speak?
    I've never personally attended any of his talks but there are DVDs available.

    "Awakening in the Now"
    "Finding Your Life Purpose"
    "Creating A New World: Eckhart Tolle"
    And a teaching series: "The Flowering of Human Consciousness"


  • I was just wondering how he comes across in person--like a charlatan, or like a regular guy, or kindly, or how?
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    @GuyC- Thank you so much for taking the time to give a well thought out, clear answer. Are you a teacher? If you are, your students are indeed fortunate. :)
    I am not formally a teacher, I just try to share what I have learnt with others.

    I am glad that you found the information useful. :)
  • I was just wondering how he comes across in person--like a charlatan, or like a regular guy, or kindly, or how?
    It's been awhile since I viewed one of his DVDs. I enjoyed the talk and I read some of his material. I like him, but I wouldn't consider myself a devotee of his work. I'm sure that you could find him on Youtube or in some forums about his work.


  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Tolle is interesting.
    Not sure I get all his new age stuff mambo jumbo. :)
    How do you know that it's "new". Experts can't even agree on how long we've been inhabiting our world. Concepts that we think of as new maybe so old that they've been forgotten and are now being rediscovered.

    Lol!
    New as in copied from other old sacred scriptures and such.
    Re-worded and served mostly to Americans fast and quick like their food.
    I would know, I live in America;)
  • I heard Elaine Pagel speak once, what an incredible intellectual. She learned to read multiple dead languages all so she can understand the true meaning behind christianity. Her interpretation of it all seems very buddhist to me.
    after listening a few passages, gnostic christianism may be the most compatible religion with buddhism.
  • compassionate warrior its in the gospel of Robert Anton Wilson
    Who is that? No, it's in one of the Gospels. Or it's in one of the Nag Hammadi Gospels, I'm not sure. Anyway, one of the 12 (13?) apostles includes Mary as "one of us", according to Pagels. I should re-read her books.
    @tmottes Welcome to the Elaine Pagels fan club! :D She's studied a bit of Buddhism, too, I read recently.

    13 is actually lucky... there may have being only one Judas.
  • Tolle is interesting.
    Not sure I get all his new age stuff mambo jumbo. :)
    How do you know that it's "new". Experts can't even agree on how long we've been inhabiting our world. Concepts that we think of as new maybe so old that they've been forgotten and are now being rediscovered.

    Lol!
    New as in copied from other old sacred scriptures and such.
    Re-worded and served mostly to Americans fast and quick like their food.
    I would know, I live in America;)
    Leon, I understand your skepticism and I agree that we have our share of phony teachers and purveyors of new age nonsense. It's a big business. I don't have much interest in the majority of it.

    I'm just saying that we can't possibly know the origins of any of these teachings- they may be much older and have resurfaced with teachers from long ago. And yes, sadly, people will exploit and twist these teachings to suit their own selfish needs. Where do you think cults come from?

  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Tolle is interesting.
    Not sure I get all his new age stuff mambo jumbo. :)
    How do you know that it's "new". Experts can't even agree on how long we've been inhabiting our world. Concepts that we think of as new maybe so old that they've been forgotten and are now being rediscovered.

    Lol!
    New as in copied from other old sacred scriptures and such.
    Re-worded and served mostly to Americans fast and quick like their food.
    I would know, I live in America;)
    Leon, I understand your skepticism and I agree that we have our share of phony teachers and purveyors of new age nonsense. It's a big business. I don't have much interest in the majority of it.

    I'm just saying that we can't possibly know the origins of any of these teachings- they may be much older and have resurfaced with teachers from long ago. And yes, sadly, people will exploit and twist these teachings to suit their own selfish needs. Where do you think cults come from?

    True!
    Make great points!
    Like that book: "Outwitting the Devil: The Secret to Freedom and Success." Napoleon Hill
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1402784538/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1455810169&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1S9RDM2MA31EBNWCA196
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    I've read Tolle, and I like his stuff, but for me it wasn't enough. As a newly recovering alcoholic at the time I first read The Power of Now, his teachings didn't go far enough, IMO. It just seemed to say that you need to lead an ethical life and practise mindfulness.

    But I found it extremely hard/impossible to stay in the present when I was full of guilt, shame and remorse from my past actions; and it's not easy to stay in the present when you're getting chased by bailiffs and debt collectors either.

    I do still like his books though.
  • I have never heard or read about him.
  • I've never read Tolle, so I can't say if he's enlightened or not. I can, however, say that yes, anyone can become enlightened without Buddhism. Afterall, the Buddha did.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited July 2011
    Enlightenment is the 'NOW'
    the above statement does not conform to enlightenment in Buddhism, so why ask?

    further, there is no 'NOW' :orange:
  • There is no now haha this made me giggle..

    The external situations we present in the now is all measured by our actions right now. The supreme conditions woudnt hold anything without thoughts bearing hear right now. Its all good stuff but you need to see it.
  • I've never read Tolle, so I can't say if he's enlightened or not. I can, however, say that yes, anyone can become enlightened without Buddhism. Afterall, the Buddha did.
    This is a great thing to remember. X
  • I read many many new age books - IMHO there are only 2 that are the real thing and the power of now is one of them - Tolle is an OK guy IMHO
    @Karma Dondrup Tashi
    What's the other one?
  • GuiGui Veteran
    Is "becoming" even possible? From where does becoming begin? Personally, I think we are all awake and we're all dreaming. It's this time illusion that just confuses things. :)
  • Bodha8Bodha8 Veteran
    There is no now haha this made me giggle..

    The external situations we present in the now is all measured by our actions right now. The supreme conditions woudnt hold anything without thoughts bearing hear right now. Its all good stuff but you need to see it.
    I have read Tolle extensively, I also read sutras, I make my own mind up as to what I feel is appropriate or helpful for myself. There is nothing new under the sun. We all should listen to many teachers (the Buddha himself tells us this) and make our own decisions and not just blindly follow any teacher just because he or she was hear first.

    Zenmyste is absolutely correct - and furthermore, for those of you who call yourselves "Old School Buddhists" and new age and Echart Tolle and his like are all full of new age crap. What is the name of the website you are posting on right now???

    Could it be newbuddhist.com??

    Namaste



  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited July 2011
    The external situations we present in the now is all measured by our actions right now. The supreme conditions wouldnt hold anything without thoughts bearing hear right now. Its all good stuff but you need to see it.
    still unrelated to Buddhist enlightenment :orange:
  • I have no idea, nor do I really care one way or the other whether Eckhart Tolle is enlightened. The fact of the matter is, his writings have had a profound effect on me and my life, so I'm thankful for him. I don't "get" everything he says, but I do "get" a LOT of what he says, and it makes great sense to me, and has helped point me in a different direction in life. No matter what you think of him, he's done a lot of good for a lot of people, and really hasn't asked a lot in return. Sure, he makes money from his books and speaking tours, but we all need to earn a living. He's not asking people to sign up for his program for $249.95, and he's not on TV on Sundays telling us to send a "donation" to help keep his "ministry" alive (so he can drive a $200k car and wear big diamonds). I think he's a pretty amazing fellow.
  • still unrelated to Buddhist enlightenment :orange:
  • Bodha8Bodha8 Veteran
    For those of you who seem to be stuck on this point.

    There is no such thing as "Buddhist Enlightenment",

    There is only Enlightenment, period.

    There is no special Christian enlightenment, Muslim enlightenment, Jewish enlightenment, Jainism enlightenment, Bob Hope or Donald Duck enlightenment.

    There is only Enlightenment.

    I hope this information helps.

    Namaste
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    What do you mean by enlightenment?
  • edited July 2011
    I read many many new age books - IMHO there are only 2 that are the real thing and the power of now is one of them - Tolle is an OK guy IMHO
    @Karma Dondrup Tashi
    What's the other one?
    I kind of think ACIM is worth a look occaisionally.

  • jlljll Veteran
    edited July 2011
    Tolle is a good teacher. He has his niche. Unique
    because he does not claim to be from any religion.
    As a result, he has attracted many people who otherwise
    would not be interested.
    Being on Oprah sure helped.
    The things he teaches are consistent with Buddhism.


  • The problem with "The Power of Now" is that it doesn't teach you how to achieve this great mind state. Telling the reader to simply "be in the present" is pretty useless. Those platitudes have been floating around in the West since the 60s.


    PON is inspirational and an intellectual defense of some of the goals of Buddhism. But it does not offer a path. Unfortunately, this is part of its appeal: The book makes deliberate self-transformation seem to be as easy as reading a book.

    Unfortunately, for most people, self-transformation is something you have to work on for a long time. And people don't like work...

    So even if Tolle is enlightened, he hasn't given us a useful way to follow in his steps. It is important to note that his own transformation was unintentional and based on his very peculiar life circumstances. I would much rather read a book by someone who reached enlightenment through his intention to reach enlightenment and his practices to achieve it.

    Of course, the words "work" and "practice" aren't sexy. In fact, neither is "intention", since even that takes some mental energy.
  • Maybe Tolle is a pretyekabuddha. He has achieved a "personal enlightenment" but has not perfected the faculties necessary in order to instruct others. I don't know, though. I haven't read anything of his. I agree with @buddhajunkie regarding people's obsession with the fastrack to happiness. No one wants to put in the years of effort and study necessary in order to undergo real, lasting transformation. They all want to have their cake and eat it too.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    @buddhajunkie

    there are two types of people on the path of spirituality.

    those who need to do a shit load of work and practice really really hard to get to the point of being here now where there is nothing to do, nowhere to go, just here, just this, no state to achieve.

    those who just stop, relax and be.

    the "path" is relative based on the conditioning of the person. obviously the more conditioning the longer the path is.
    also a person willing to throw it all down, would have a sudden awakening and then gradually have to cultivate such awakening.

    tolle's method is to point your awareness back into itself. to free such awareness from the mental objects.

    this does not appeal to the conditioned mind of i need to level up to get to here. i need to achieve this to get to here.

    you are here. realize this. if you cannot relax and realize this, then keep practicing. this is not to say that there is no purpose to the path, but to some people they can just wake up from hearing his words. such is the nature of a teacher.
  • jlljll Veteran
    Tolle teaches based on his personal experience.
    How did his transformation come about?
    He was on the verge of suicide.
    He said ' I cant live with myself'.
    Who is I and who is myself?
    In his experience, awakening came through
    unbearable suffering.
    Not thru training and effort.
    His teachings reflect that.


    The problem with "The Power of Now" is that it doesn't teach you how to achieve this great mind state. Telling the reader to simply "be in the present" is pretty useless. Those platitudes have been floating around in the West since the 60s.


    PON is inspirational and an intellectual defense of some of the goals of Buddhism. But it does not offer a path. Unfortunately, this is part of its appeal: The book makes deliberate self-transformation seem to be as easy as reading a book.

    Unfortunately, for most people, self-transformation is something you have to work on for a long time. And people don't like work...

    So even if Tolle is enlightened, he hasn't given us a useful way to follow in his steps. It is important to note that his own transformation was unintentional and based on his very peculiar life circumstances. I would much rather read a book by someone who reached enlightenment through his intention to reach enlightenment and his practices to achieve it.

    Of course, the words "work" and "practice" aren't sexy. In fact, neither is "intention", since even that takes some mental energy.
  • Bodha8Bodha8 Veteran
    Tolle teaches based on his personal experience.
    How did his transformation come about?
    He was on the verge of suicide.
    He said ' I cant live with myself'.
    Who is I and who is myself?
    In his experience, awakening came through
    unbearable suffering.
    Not thru training and effort.
    His teachings reflect that.


    The problem with "The Power of Now" is that it doesn't teach you how to achieve this great mind state. Telling the reader to simply "be in the present" is pretty useless. Those platitudes have been floating around in the West since the 60s.


    PON is inspirational and an intellectual defense of some of the goals of Buddhism. But it does not offer a path. Unfortunately, this is part of its appeal: The book makes deliberate self-transformation seem to be as easy as reading a book.

    Unfortunately, for most people, self-transformation is something you have to work on for a long time. And people don't like work...

    So even if Tolle is enlightened, he hasn't given us a useful way to follow in his steps. It is important to note that his own transformation was unintentional and based on his very peculiar life circumstances. I would much rather read a book by someone who reached enlightenment through his intention to reach enlightenment and his practices to achieve it.

    Of course, the words "work" and "practice" aren't sexy. In fact, neither is "intention", since even that takes some mental energy.
    Thanks jll.

    Glad to see somebody actually gets it.

    Namaste
  • Tolle teaches based on his personal experience.
    How did his transformation come about?
    He was on the verge of suicide.
    He said ' I cant live with myself'.
    Who is I and who is myself?
    In his experience, awakening came through
    unbearable suffering.
    Not thru training and effort.
    His teachings reflect that.

    Thanks jll.

    Glad to see somebody actually gets it.

    Namaste
    So the lesson for us is to become borderline suicidal then hope to have a flash of insight that enlightens us?

    Fortunately, Tolle is not advocating that we reach "enlightenment" the same way that he reached it (by becoming despondent and suicidal). However, he offers little in the way of method. And what little method he advocates seems to be a very watered down version of various Buddhist practices.

    Compare that to a Buddhist teacher (or even the Buddha himself), who advocates the same method of practice that they used to achieve (and sustain) their "enlightenment."


    Let me make an analogy. Suppose you wanted to buy a book which would teach you how get nourishment in the wild. There are two choices:

    1. A book that was written by someone (like Tolle) who was on the verge of starvation in the wild when he decided to commit suicide by jumping off a cliff. However, before reaching the edge of the cliff, he accidentally stumbled across a field filled with fruits, vegetables and nuts. In his book he writes about how delicious the food he found was and the importance of nutrition. He also speculates on techniques that you might use to find similar food, however, he didn't test these techniques until he came back from the wild to the garden in his backyard.

    2. A book that was written by someone (like the Buddha or his followers) who was on the verge of starvation in the wild when he decided to use his powers of observation to study plants and to learn what is nourishing and what does not. Furthermore, through practice and trial and error he learned how to cultivate nourishing fruits, vegetables and nuts. In his book he writes about how good the food was, the importance of nutrition, as well as the principles and practices that he discovered to find and grow food in any type of wilderness. He an his followers have continued to apply these same principles to feed themselves to this day.


    Which book is probably more useful?


    I've read and enjoyed Tolle. However, he is mostly inspiration and intellectual satisfaction, rather than practice.
  • I think Buddhajunkie's analogy is quite sensible to put it into a broad perspective. I also agree that we're all vastly different in how we learn and perceive things. It was probably for that reason Buddha mentions the used of several teachers and to reaching your goal as an individual, as opposed to a strict dogma system. Not everyone will agree with a strict dogma, which is presumably why Buddhism was never intentioned to have one. From what I gather, some, such as Mountains seemed to have gleamed quite a bit from Tolle, and no one has the position to tell them what they've learned from anyone is wrong, or is pointless. One may find truth in the oddest of places. If someone told me they had gleaned a truth that lead to further study and practice that have bettered their life entirely from the back of a box of cereal, then they are in no way worse off than someone who gleaned truth from the mouth of Buddha himself. I heard from a teacher I had once, that the reason some people are against killing any creature and against oppression and censorship, is because we never know by what methods profound truth might show itself to us, it could be where you least expect it. We all have opinions of Tolle's work, and that's about all we have. If it works for some, great. Trying to define enlightenment and attach it to potentials that are based on our opinions probably won't go very far.
  • Hello.

    I came to this board not from a buddhist background, but through a facination with analytical psychology, and I've come across Tolle in that context.

    He is a rare type of person, but not a unique type of person.

    He is a Ni-Fe dom. What does that mean? Well, there are different cognitive reflexes we use, in different orders. Why they develop thus, and what all of them are would go beyond the scope of a post, so I will concentrate on Ni, the key component, and his dominant cognitive function, the mode of thought at the driver seat of his mental car, if you will.

    Ni, or Introverted Intuition, seeks to create a mental framework of information that is all interconnected. Everything is seen in relationship to everything else. It is a constantly evolving whole, singular framework of data where on tiny change can alter the whole like shifting a kaleidoscope a little, creating a new picture of how the world works. People dominating with introverted intuition are rare. People who couple this with Fe, or extroverted feeling, or empathy, are even rarer. Throughout their life they create a singular framework based on the empathic information they take in and prioritize.

    Suspected Ni-Fe doms were Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Carl Jung, Tolle, Ghandi, ... and on the Shadow side, the famous Hitler.

    Jesus and Buddha are also suspected to be infjs, but... I don't know about that. Maybe they started out like that, but I tend to think of both of them along the lines of XXXX. Meaning, perfect balance between all cognitive functions. That's the kind of enlightenment that I am striving for, myself.

    Introverted, Intuitive, Feeler, Judger.
    http://typelogic.com/infj.html

    For Ni and Fe working together in a dominant position in that order seriously pump up empathic perception into ... very disturbing dimensions. I think of it as inverse autism. One is bombarded with emotional cues and emotional states. The suffering of others becomes indistinguishable from one owns suffering, and helping others is, in a sense, a selfish venture to end ones own suffering. For the maturing INFJ, anyways. At least for me, this was not a good road to venture on. One with very, very hard lessons.

    Alright, so far, so good. As an infj myself, from that perspective, I can understand what kind of enlightenment Tolle may have reached. This internal framework, and this is important, is constantly driven towards a solution, towards oneness. All information, all perspectives, all experiences, all data, all feelings, they are all put inside the same evolving interconnected mental framework, constantly seeking to harmonize all experiences into one singular, final, all encompassing big picture that can consistently survive the test against reality.

    The introverted intuition is key, here. Since emotions are always fuzzy to describe, let me talk about the infjs cousin, the Ni-Te dom. Te, extroverted Thinking. My intj cousins are (nearly?) completely devoid of empathy, because once again, the Ni-Te dynamic drives the internal system building into disturbing dimensions on the other end of the feeling spectrum. You'll find a very high percentage of people suffering from Aspergers or even autism to be intjs. Ni-Tes create an internal framework of information, seeking understanding, deeper and deeper, within the information they prioritize. The concrete, the rational, the logical, the factual. These are the Einsteins and Hawkings of our society. Their drive towards oneness in their framework, their solutions, are of practical value and can grow the knowledge base of our society.

    I think it's easier to imagine this kind of mind, and then imagine a Einstein who concentrated not on the logical observations that can be made about the universe, but those that can be made on the human condition.

    Ni is inherently hard to describe. Here is someone elses description:
    http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/introverted+intuition+(ni)


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