Enligtenment and chicken egg story....

zen_world

My teachers in real life and some lama's on the internet suggest that we should aim for the big goal always whether we can achieve it or not! So my goal is enlightenment in this body, in this life time.
Sometimes I do thought exercise to check how close I am to enlightenment.
The way I test myself is to question my ethics...I am, and probably most of you, living in relatively comfortable conditions. So we do not get a chance to test our ethical values. I am talking about the ultimate test.
I ask myself the following questions:
1- If I face with a situation where I have to loose all my financial wealth and all I have to do to save everything is to lie but if this lie would cause another person to suffer seriously, can I still lie?
2- If I am being beaten seriously by someone and there is only one exit: Either I kill him or he kill me, would I kill my opponent to save my life?
3- If I face with a nasty person or even another life form that wants to harm me, can I still feel compassion?
Obviously the honest answer is that I cannot do these...and I believe almost nobody can do!
So do you think that one can become enligthened if he can sacrifice himself in situations as I described above or do we need to become enlightened so only then we are willing to sacrifice our gains for other sentinent beings...

My answer: We do not need to be perfectly ethical to become enlightened but our intention to attain perfection (ethically) would take us all the way there...

PS: Ethics is only one component but I think you get my drift...

taiyaki

ethics lead to health states of mind which in turn lead to concentration and mindfulness.
the end goal is realization, which is done when we see clearly into what is.

hehe

Jeffrey

So your like trying to make a test of how your progress has gone?

zen_world

So your like trying to make a test of how your progress has gone?

lol....yes I do have different tests to check my progress...
you know we are very deluded beings. So occasional tests would help me see if I am really progressing or if I am kidding myself...

aMatt

So occasional tests would help me see if I am really progressing or if I am kidding myself...

A good test to see if you're kidding yourself might be:

Sit down with some paper. Come up with a list of hypothetical questions and write them down. Did you come up with a list of hypothetical questions and write them down? You passed! You are kidding yourself!

Vincenzi

just check which fetters are broken once in a while...

Jeffrey

"The Warrior's accomplishment of outrageousness is like a good, self existing sword-- desire to sharpen it will make it dull. When, out of hope and fear, you apply a competitive or comparative logic to your experience, trying to measure how much you have fathomed, how much is left to fathom, or how much someone else has fathomed, you are just dulling your sword, the sharmpness of your mind. Instead, have confidence in your awareness and relax in your ability to connect with a larger vision, the experience of vast mind."

Trungpa Rinpoche.

aMatt

Shambhala:Sacred Path is a pretty beginner type book from Trungpa. Consider moving on to Cutting through Spiritual Materialism or The Myth of Freedom. So many Warrior quotes lately, Jeffrey!

Jeffrey

This quote is from ocean of dharma.. I have read Smile with Fear, most of Ocean of Dharma, and Sacred Path of Warrior.. So you recommend the others? I think I will read Training the Mind first, would go nicely with Start Where You Are by pema chodron which I have read.

conradcook

3- If I face with a nasty person or even another life form that wants to harm me, can I still feel compassion?

Obviously the honest answer is that I cannot do these...and I believe almost nobody can do!

So do you think that one can become enligthened if he can sacrifice himself in situations as I described above or do we need to become enlightened so only then we are willing to sacrifice our gains for other sentinent beings...

My answer: We do not need to be perfectly ethical to become enlightened but our intention to attain perfection (ethically) would take us all the way there...

This isn't making sense to me... If you don't want to benefit all sentient beings, why do you want to become enlightened?

If you do want to benefit all sentient beings, why is it difficult for you to feel compassion toward someone who wants to harm you?

Maybe you want to reach enlightenment for your own good? -- I suppose a person could think of it that way. But to me, I find the prospect of enlightenment and Nirvana is kinda scary.

To be taken across to Cessation, with no traces left of me, Conrad Cook? Honestly, that sounds too much like death to be comfortable to me. The idea that I'll be useful to sentient beings is what keeps me persistently at this.

(I think it'll become increasingly more clear what clarity means as I get closer to it. And so it's not a single choice now, but a series of choices as I get more information.)

Then on the other hand, the notion of failure scares me too. That something'll happen that will kill me tomorrow, and I'll have botched an opportunity to have helped out. Scared either way. Just scared, I guess.

So there's not an alternative I'm entirely comfortable with. Except maybe becoming some kind of guardian spirit, that prevents the species from destroying itself (with, for example, a nanotech WMD; or by any means), and works mankind's spiritual flourishment. I'd do that in a flash. -- But you knew that.

So what are your reasons for, as you've said elsewhere, wanting enlightenment? -- Don't tell me, I mean; ask yourself.

Buddha bless,

Conrad.

ps - Not to hijack the thread here, but a better connundrum is: Let's say you're devoted to becoming enlightened, you want it very much, and you believe that it's possible.

Then, your life is threatened. So maybe you won't become enlightened after all, and who knows what'll happen in the next life? But, you might be able to survive, if you break some moral rules.

So, do you act immorally as a means to buy survival and thereby (God willing) enlightenment?

For my part, it depends on the severity of the transgression. I'd steal, but I wouldn't kill.

Then again, I'd steal just to stay alive (but wouldn't kill). And I'd hope I'd steal even to keep someone else alive. Even someone who wanted to hurt me.

I don't really believe that written-down codes of conduct can get at right behavior. Life is too complicated. You have to feel it out.

C.