[BK-TWT] Introduction page 11 Upaka

Jeffrey

The buddha ran into another wanderer on his way to deer park, Upaka. When the buddha met upaka he said "I am all transcender, all knower, unstained by theories, relinquishing all, liberated by terminating craving etc". Upaka said "May it be so, friend".. The book comments that buddha had given him nothing to dig into nothing to entice him or lead him.. The book said maybe buddha learned from that encounter.

Later Buddha gave the first discourse. How do you think the first discourse improves and leaves someone with a wheel to ride?

Ric

Well Jeff I think this kind of plays into what my 1st topic was. About selling the idea. To persuade and sell an idea you must make sure the person "buys into" and I think naturally some buddhist authors seem to overplay certain aspects.

but I think it does help, because its just human nature. We wont listen to something which we dont believe might be worthwhile. Especially after the 2 min mark. So no matter how good a message can be, it wont be heard unless the benefits are told up front.

BuckyG

Hi Jeffrey,
Kondanna's/Kondanya's story is an example of how the first discourse leaves someone with a wheel to ride. But it does not (necessarily) imply, as AS suggests, that his presentation to the 5 was an improvement over what he said to Upaka (doesn't rule it out, though, either). I suppose we must allow AS such commentarial liberties?
:buck:

Jeffrey

I meant improve in the sense of achieving a different result from experienced with Upaka. In the case of Upaka, Upaka did not learn anything of dharma he just heard that someone was free from negativity and Upaka responded 'good, thats great'.

My question is whether we can explain what the buddha did in his speach at deer park to give a starting point to the dharma. I think it was because he explained something that all of the men had felt, craving is not helpful. And then he stated that their ascetism would not help at all either. What I understood was that the pursuit and the denial of pleasure were distractions. I am surprised the watchers praised buddha exactly at least they must have had further questions. Buddha did not particularly describe the eightfold path he just listed as bullets. If it were that easy to understand what he meant (as bullets) then why had these people not practiced the 8 fold path previously? Did they not try to act 'right' and make 'effort' 'meditation' etcc...

I think all the buddha said was reassure that the stress of reprisal and giving up was not the way to go and help clarify the listeners to not follow allegiance to those strategies.

Ric

Im not sure I get your question Jeff.

It would seem that the starting point of the Buddha's teaching is indeed that seeking either extreme pleasure or extreme blocking of desires were both fruitless.

Would it be then fair to say, that the core of it all, its all about understanding desires and following the positive ones ?

Jeffrey

My question is what techique or what method did buddha use to engage the monks at deerpark. Granted that the author felt he did not engage Upaka.