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[BK-TWT] BuckyG's Questions & Observations

BuckyGBuckyG
edited July 2011 in General Banter
Bookclub Questions, Observations for Chs. 1-5, Turning The Wheel of Truth: Commentary on the Buddha's First Teaching by Ajahn Sucitto (AS)

"Although the terminology can be difficult to grasp in the abstract, it is revealingly relevant in meditation when we can more fully feel mental behavior and learn to unravel its compulsive knots. THIS IS WHY AND HOW THE BUDDHA TAUGHT--NOT TO ESTABLISH A PHILOSOPHY, BUT TO PLACE SOME LANDMARKS AND SOME EQUIPMENT ON THE TERRAIN OF THE MIND. It is with like intent that this book is offered" (p. xiii, my emphasis).

May we adopt the same attitude in our discussion. :buck:

Chs. 1-2
What are the modern (7.15.2011) forms of indulgence extremes and supression extremes of the Middle Way/Noble Eightfold Path (pp. 22-24)? As a corollary, how is life in 2011 dhamma practice (p. 29)?

Ch. 3
AS puts emotions in the consciousness aggregate (p. 43) of the five aggregates. I'm used to seeing emotions in the sankhara aggregate. I also found his description of the sankhara aggregate "unorthodox." Anyone else notice this? (See my Ch. 4/next question also.)

Ch. 4

Is AS implying that avijja (unkowing, ignorance) + tanha (craving) = sankhara (pp. 54-56)? Is this his "middle way" compromise between those who claim dukkha is solely or primarily caused by craving and those say it's primarily or solely caused by ignorance? (See my Ch. 5/next questions too).

Ch. 5
AS claims that "the analysis [of the truth of the arising of suffering] in terms of dependent origination SHOWS us that THE ORIGIN OF this SUFFERING process IS COMPOUNDED out OF CRAVING AND IGNORANCE (p. 75, my emphasis). Did AS succeed in this chapter in supporting his claim that the cause of dukkha is a COMPOUND of avijja and tanha? :buck:

Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Chs. 1-2
    What are the modern (7.15.2011) forms of indulgence extremes and supression extremes of the Middle Way/Noble Eightfold Path (pp. 22-24)? As a corollary, how is life in 2011 dhamma practice (p. 29)?

    I don't think its of so much concern that we have nice food and business. Entertainment. I see on facebook that this can bring people together. Someone shares a special thing and everyone goes around. I don't point a finger and say 'tanha' that would be insane, I think some buddhists think that haha.

    I think I experience indulgence in that I am always bouncing in my safe routine. Go on the computer and cling to it. If feel bad go and sit with music and candle burning have tea. Its not wrong haha I think people get too dogmatic about dukkha.

    Its like you are detoxing from itching yourself. You had so many neurosis and now you feel unnease and looking for something to make it go away. Thats a mindset and it seems never ending this looking for something, tanha.

    In my opinion the repression is to think that you have to be dharmic and there is something wrong with you. A buddhist would say dharmic. What you have to do is sit with the itchiness. Its ok to go outdoors and have tea. That is compassion to yourself. It becomes indulgence when the tanha arises.

    There is definitely a sense of wrongness. I looked at a photo of a woman who I hadn't seen in highschool who had been a nice helper to me an older highschool student who had been friendly. It made me so happy, but immediately the next came thinking trying to hold onto that.

    I think meditation is helping to get some experience that we don't have to get lost in these thoughts or try to get rid of them. When you see a good photo or eat a good chicken parmigiana feel good, but then the tanha just have confidence that this is not the true nature of reality.

    Dharma practice comes from intentionality. Its not what you get. Its honoring the wish for enlightenment. Connecting with the mandala of awakening. Dharma practice is relaxing and letting go of this fear that you are not ok. Why doesn't it just lead to indulgence? Lets analize this? What kind of dualistic mind breaks experience down into right and wrong, indulgence and repression? I've broken alcoholism and I did it by being not divided. I wanted to live, but I wanted to live because I wanted to feel. Life such as it is.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I recommend breaking these into more than one thread.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    A lot of what we experience as tanha is confusion, lack of clarity. The tanha is trying to escape that mind rather than breathing in.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I would say that suffering is caused when sankhara is seen as real. It is caused by ignorance. When the sankhara is seen as real we grasp at them and cannot get anything for it. Its like you are trying to do some game when you are dreaming in between waking and sleep and then you wake up and you realize that the game was not real.

    We are off kilter because we are getting our signals wrong. We experience this as suffering. Then the sankhara is grasped to in order to control the situation which involves delusion.

    All we need to do is stop grasping and go through the detox. Have faith. Its never too late. The nature of mind is clarity and so the the perception that the off kilter signals is a problem 'good' 'bad' is seen as false. Its a matter of pride and embarassment.


  • RicRic
    Chs. 1-2
    What are the modern (7.15.2011) forms of indulgence extremes and supression extremes of the Middle Way/Noble Eightfold Path (pp. 22-24)? As a corollary, how is life in 2011 dhamma practice (p. 29)?

    Wow I have no idea, I would have to know other Buddhists to answer that. Perhaps as conditions improve throughout the world we become more accustomed to comfort. So perhaps Right Effort gets manipulated into a scheduled activity placed in a calendar at a designated time. Or that right effort is seen as, "how many hours were put in"
  • BuckyGBuckyG
    I recommend breaking these into more than one thread.
    Works for me. Should I do that? :buck:

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    It seems to be working, I think there is enough of a common theme to them I just worried because my first answer was so long that all of the questions would get mixed up.
  • BuckyGBuckyG
    edited July 2011
    Wow, Jeffrey. I love this response. Thanks a lot.
    ...I think people get too dogmatic about dukkha.
    In light of the examples you provide, I cannot disagree. Those things are too petty to qualify as dukkha (IMO).
    Its like you are detoxing from itching yourself....tanha.
    AS gives a dharma talk called where he calls this detoxing "Waking Up From the Hangover of Life."
    In my opinion the repression is to think that you have to be dharmic and there is something wrong with you. A buddhist would say dharmic. What you have to do is sit with the itchiness. Its ok to go outdoors and have tea. That is compassion to yourself. It becomes indulgence when the tanha arises.
    Elsewhere (maybe in the book Kamma & the End of Kamma) AS refers to this type repression as the inner tyrant.

    IMO and personal experience, it is the inner tyrant that is the source of the suppression extreme, but I do not know if that is a modern,/"western" phenomena or more universally human. I tend to go with the former. :buck:



  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 2011
    When I said we are too dogmatic about dukkha I was not negating that I was having the experience of unease in my examples. I do firmly believe that dukkha is not whatsoever a rare experience. What I was saying is that lighting a candle is just a way to get a lightening up. It feeds craving a bit, but it can also help to open outwards and sit. Life isn't stasis. Its not all or nothing.

    Maybe I am speaking for myself I have a lot of bad body feeling from side effects of medication and anxiety condition.
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