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No, it is using you. It creates much fantasy about me, from my perception of hitler, to my eating habits, to animals being tortured in front of me!
I hope you find peace, moderation, and compassion, friend. This conversation really doesn't seem to be going in a good direction for you, eh? I forgive you for the harsh words and projections, if you ever come to a point where you care for me.
i found the article by Mary Garden, whilst a little extreme, was reasonable. it pointed out extreme retreats, such as Goenka retreats, for beginners, may not be healthy. personally, i cannot disagree with this, given i hold the same view
however, personally, i have managed (organised) many many retreats, with at least 6,000 participants, mostly beginners. i have not seen any major problems (apart from a few persons that had very serious pre-existing issues)
imo & ime, retreats ideally should be very balanced, with alot of different activities, i.e., mixed & moderate walking & sitting meditation periods, plenty of lectures & readings, yoga, chanting, work periods, free time, talk to staff anytime, etc
you wrote me a large reply, but I cannot see how it addresses what I said in my post. For example, no-where did I say that anger is necessarily bad. Also, I did not state anything related to my compassion (or absence of compassion) for animals. Maybe you could be more specific about which parts of my posts you agree with, and which parts you don't?
No, it is using you. It creates much fantasy about me, from my perception of hitler, to my eating habits, to animals being tortured in front of me!
This sounds extremely rude to someone who is just starting to get into Buddhism, so i hope both or you will forgive me for giving an example which i think can explain this statement. Take it as an experiment.
1. You think you are the one controlling those thoughts, about animal cruelty and such. You like to think those thoughts, because thats whats you believe in. That is fine.
2. But since you really believe in it, it couldn't hurt not to think about them for 5 min? Im sure you believe it strongly enough so that you will still be able to put the same value on them after the meditation. Take a clock and focus on your breath. DO NOT THINK, either those thoughts mentioned here or anything else. Seriously, time yourself, its only 5 min.
3. What most of us find, and you will too probably, is that you cannot refuse to think those thoughts or other thoughts. You can not out reason them to not appear. They will pop up independently of you. If you want to stop thinking, you cannot. The thoughts arise, and you can either like them or dislike them, in either way you are attaching to them. They will constantly arise, tempting you with this or that, telling you things that are "common sense", that are "good" and that you must act on them, that you must think them. Not letting you to let them go even for minutes, because their job is to keep hold of you, or else they loose their power over you. You thought the thoughts are because you want them to be there, because you know they are correct. Thing is, even if you do not want to think them, they will be thought. They are the one controlling you when you will think them, it is not you who is in control of that.
But the experiment was if you could not produce those thoughts. Im guessing you still could not do this, regardless how much you wanted. They pop up and tempt you in thinking more of them. Even if you don't want them, they will appear and they will manipulate you, and they will always want you to stop the meditation because of something, or they might tell you that you are enjoying meditation and so on.
Thus this is called monkey mind. It is uncontrollable, you cannot think it away, and its always jumping around to grasp at everything it can lay its hands on, just like a monkey. It sees a banana, and it is tasty and it must be gotten, and it sees a rope and it must climb there. The only thing you can do to ever be free of thoughts for a moment is let them pass one by one. Then you may be able to enter a state where there is no good and evil (that is what people are referring to when they tell you you should face your mind). But you can only achieve that if you let yourself (or in a way want to) and work towards it, usually with meditation.
4. Maybe share the result of the experiment with us
This sounds extremely rude to someone who is just starting to get into Buddhism, so i hope both or you will forgive me for giving an example which i think can explain this statement. Take it as an experiment.
Is this to me? I am not talking about stopping thought, the posts I am pointing are ripe with fantasy, such as "you don't care if an animal is tortured and killed in front of you". The mind in question has convinced itself of my views, simply because I ask our new friend to look beyond the angry view.
It runs so far it describes me as an idiot, a zombie, a cult follower! I am being kind, not rude! His or her mind is painting fantasy, then getting angry at the paintings!
i dont care if you eat meat, that is your karma, but i do care if the teacher and role model of buddhism does because he is causing untold suffering to 100o's of animals.
Another story comes to mind. [again, i forgot where i got this one, it is not mine]
Once upon a time there was a teacher with a small group of monks. They lived in some distant place, and they did meditation and chanting, and were good to other people, kept the precepts, and generally followed their teacher to learn from him. One day, the teacher assembled his students to talk to them. "You have all been excellent students." he started. "You all have improved considerably since you came here" he went on. The students were happy with the praise, since they had to put alot of work into keeping precepts and instructions.
The teacher continued "since you have been such excellent students, now is the time for you to enter the secret room which will help you reach nirvana". They always wondered what was hidden behind a door they were not allowed to enter, and were happy to follow their teacher.
The teacher opened the door to the mysterious room, and invited the students in. They looked around and to their disappointment it was just a usual living room with a TV and a small table next to the sofa which held some half empty bottles of alcoholic beverage and some cigarette butts in a tray.
Then the teacher started speaking again "so now you see, here is where i occasionally spend the whole day watching sumo while drinking and smoking".
With their last attachment dropped (that the teacher is perfect), most of those students were said to have reached Enlightenment.
This sounds extremely rude to someone who is just starting to get into Buddhism, so i hope both or you will forgive me for giving an example which i think can explain this statement. Take it as an experiment.
Is this to me? I am not talking about stopping thought, the posts I am pointing are ripe with fantasy, such as "you don't care if an animal is tortured and killed in front of you". The mind in question has convinced itself of my views, simply because I ask our new friend to look beyond the angry view.
It runs so far it describes me as an idiot, a zombie, a cult follower! I am being kind, not rude! His or her mind is painting fantasy, then getting angry at the paintings!
I know. But our thoughts usually seem justified to us, not? So it may seem they are our own work. I suggested the experiment for Brodyn to see that the thoughts are actually not something that a person ownes. They can arise independently from what the person would want to happen.
You say the thoughts are describing you as something you are not. A few months back if you directed such a post to me i would probably get back at you immediately, since, how can you say my thoughts are wrong? My thoughts are me, i'm thinking them! So basically you would be accusing me of being stupid, out of my mind and being like a monkey :wtf:
My experiment tries to show how the previous idea is wrong by showing how our thoughts are independent of us. If you try to stop those thoughts, you can't. They are thought, and they behave like a monkey. This is an insight, it is not something that everybody just knows. If Brodyn doesn't see thin on his/her own, it is no use telling him/her. It is not a concept grasped by logic/reasoning (and language and thoughts work by logic).
Comments
I hope you find peace, moderation, and compassion, friend. This conversation really doesn't seem to be going in a good direction for you, eh? I forgive you for the harsh words and projections, if you ever come to a point where you care for me.
Walk with ursus.
i found the article by Mary Garden, whilst a little extreme, was reasonable. it pointed out extreme retreats, such as Goenka retreats, for beginners, may not be healthy. personally, i cannot disagree with this, given i hold the same view
however, personally, i have managed (organised) many many retreats, with at least 6,000 participants, mostly beginners. i have not seen any major problems (apart from a few persons that had very serious pre-existing issues)
imo & ime, retreats ideally should be very balanced, with alot of different activities, i.e., mixed & moderate walking & sitting meditation periods, plenty of lectures & readings, yoga, chanting, work periods, free time, talk to staff anytime, etc
regards
you wrote me a large reply, but I cannot see how it addresses what I said in my post. For example, no-where did I say that anger is necessarily bad. Also, I did not state anything related to my compassion (or absence of compassion) for animals. Maybe you could be more specific about which parts of my posts you agree with, and which parts you don't?
1. You think you are the one controlling those thoughts, about animal cruelty and such. You like to think those thoughts, because thats whats you believe in. That is fine.
2. But since you really believe in it, it couldn't hurt not to think about them for 5 min? Im sure you believe it strongly enough so that you will still be able to put the same value on them after the meditation. Take a clock and focus on your breath. DO NOT THINK, either those thoughts mentioned here or anything else. Seriously, time yourself, its only 5 min.
3. What most of us find, and you will too probably, is that you cannot refuse to think those thoughts or other thoughts. You can not out reason them to not appear. They will pop up independently of you. If you want to stop thinking, you cannot. The thoughts arise, and you can either like them or dislike them, in either way you are attaching to them. They will constantly arise, tempting you with this or that, telling you things that are "common sense", that are "good" and that you must act on them, that you must think them. Not letting you to let them go even for minutes, because their job is to keep hold of you, or else they loose their power over you. You thought the thoughts are because you want them to be there, because you know they are correct. Thing is, even if you do not want to think them, they will be thought. They are the one controlling you when you will think them, it is not you who is in control of that.
But the experiment was if you could not produce those thoughts. Im guessing you still could not do this, regardless how much you wanted. They pop up and tempt you in thinking more of them. Even if you don't want them, they will appear and they will manipulate you, and they will always want you to stop the meditation because of something, or they might tell you that you are enjoying meditation and so on.
Thus this is called monkey mind. It is uncontrollable, you cannot think it away, and its always jumping around to grasp at everything it can lay its hands on, just like a monkey. It sees a banana, and it is tasty and it must be gotten, and it sees a rope and it must climb there. The only thing you can do to ever be free of thoughts for a moment is let them pass one by one. Then you may be able to enter a state where there is no good and evil (that is what people are referring to when they tell you you should face your mind). But you can only achieve that if you let yourself (or in a way want to) and work towards it, usually with meditation.
4. Maybe share the result of the experiment with us
It runs so far it describes me as an idiot, a zombie, a cult follower! I am being kind, not rude! His or her mind is painting fantasy, then getting angry at the paintings!
[again, i forgot where i got this one, it is not mine]
Once upon a time there was a teacher with a small group of monks. They lived in some distant place, and they did meditation and chanting, and were good to other people, kept the precepts, and generally followed their teacher to learn from him. One day, the teacher assembled his students to talk to them. "You have all been excellent students." he started. "You all have improved considerably since you came here" he went on. The students were happy with the praise, since they had to put alot of work into keeping precepts and instructions.
The teacher continued "since you have been such excellent students, now is the time for you to enter the secret room which will help you reach nirvana". They always wondered what was hidden behind a door they were not allowed to enter, and were happy to follow their teacher.
The teacher opened the door to the mysterious room, and invited the students in. They looked around and to their disappointment it was just a usual living room with a TV and a small table next to the sofa which held some half empty bottles of alcoholic beverage and some cigarette butts in a tray.
Then the teacher started speaking again "so now you see, here is where i occasionally spend the whole day watching sumo while drinking and smoking".
With their last attachment dropped (that the teacher is perfect), most of those students were said to have reached Enlightenment.
You say the thoughts are describing you as something you are not. A few months back if you directed such a post to me i would probably get back at you immediately, since, how can you say my thoughts are wrong? My thoughts are me, i'm thinking them! So basically you would be accusing me of being stupid, out of my mind and being like a monkey :wtf:
My experiment tries to show how the previous idea is wrong by showing how our thoughts are independent of us. If you try to stop those thoughts, you can't. They are thought, and they behave like a monkey. This is an insight, it is not something that everybody just knows. If Brodyn doesn't see thin on his/her own, it is no use telling him/her. It is not a concept grasped by logic/reasoning (and language and thoughts work by logic).