[BK] Chapter 5: Following the path of suffering:Feeling

Ric

Ill start by saying that as he traces suffering, it is kinda easy for me to follow but very hard to find an insight. I just feel like the author is concise but not clear. When he gets to feeling (p.71) "in witnessing contact, we can choose to act or not. We can direct and terminate craving." Then he goes on to talk about pretty much indulging in good feelings, and how doing strenuous exercise can lead to bragging and boasting.

Whenever someone is good at something (doesnt even have to be physical) there is a chance that a person gets full of themselves. So his answer seems to not enjoy too much what you are doing because that will turn into boasting.So dont derive a lot of pleasure from an activity which means youll never be that great at it thus you will have no reason too boast because unless you have passion for something youll never be great at it. If that is the suggestion (which I am unclear if it is) its just crazy to me.

To me the answer would be to practice humility and understanding that you are not special, you just love to do this one thing that you spend more hours than most doing it thus you have reached a height that most people do not. I think we can find MANY examples of people on top of their fields that are extremely humble and extremely boastful. One that comes to mind as a great example of being humble is Michael Jordan.

I have more to say about this section regarding what he continues to talk about feelings of winning, and excitement (!!!). But I will save it if this discussion evolves.

Dakini

I agree with you, Ric. We can enjoy an activity, we can even enjoy having a special gift--for sports, music performance, math, whatever it is, but the key is mindfulness. If we're mindful and don't allow self-aggrandizing feelings to sneak in, then we just enjoy, and go on our way to the next thing on our schedule for the day. Besides, there's always room for improvement. So instead of comparing oneself to others, and thinking "I'm so much better at this that those guys over there", you stay focussed on how to improve you own skills. Or maybe you look for a bunch of guys who are better than you, so you can learn from them.

I think the author is focussing on the wrong stage in the mental continuum. It's not about stopping yourself from enjoying something, it's about being mindful of the ego's potential to get caught up in a job well done.

Jeffrey

I didn't have much clarity myself after reading chapter five. Many places I was like 'ah so thats what happens'.. But like you say it kind of leaves out that we still have to live our lives. It kind of makes me full of ideas instead of feel easy or something to go on. I guess what I learned was that it is more complex than just saying 'sit with tanha' but I felt barraged.

I also didn't understand why the skandas were defined as self and other in a way I forget how he said it but it was leading into proof that there is not a self seemingly. I guess I can see that the idea of tanha is that we want the skandas to be all these different things, like the weather its hot or cold or whatever. Never satisfied.

About the bragging and boasting I think what he is saying is that bragging and boasting which are actually experiences of suffering we can become addicted to because they are a sense stimulation experience complex? Does anyone agree? So he is saying that there can be delusion entwined with craving.

Dakini

Does anyone here brag and boast? I just didn't feel that some of the material was relevant.

Ric

About the bragging and boasting I think what he is saying is that bragging and boasting which are actually experiences of suffering we can become addicted to because they are a sense stimulation experience complex? Does anyone agree? So he is saying that there can be delusion entwined with craving.

Thats not how I understood it. I understood it as taking "too" much pleasure in an activity and having a real passion for something will lead to boasting and bragging. Although he is kinda unclear, here is how he puts it "People can derive pleasure from doing extremely stressful things to their bodies...when taken to extremes, this can be real problem. The mind's value..can get so distorted that we actually derive pleasure from bragging, abusing and fighting."

So if you really enjoy exercise you will automatically derive pleasure from bragging, abusing and fighting. I really just dont see this connection at all. I think he is just talking about pride and making it really convoluted and confusing.

Jeffrey

Ric, yeah we understood different things pertaining to the causes of bragging. I agree that there is nothing wrong with say vigorous physical (or mental) training. I guess it could get to be a craving at that time when you are doing something unwise such as training and neglecting family, but even then its kind of arrogant to say that someone cannot or should not make that choice. I think the point is that people can be deluded or addicted. Its not that what they do is wrong its the fact that thirst and confusion are in the drivers seat. I think if you take this in kind of a Freddy Kreuger Nightmare on Elm street or horror movie way it is kinda creepy and thats not what he is getting at. By horror movie I mean take it as something not human that we are all monsters, like these crack heads because we pet our kitten one day? Do you see what I mean? I do think he is overplaying things to make his point, but what do I know. It is kinda attractive to think "hmmm I am doing everything wrong and 5 years from now after buddhism I will be the bestest". Maybe the author himself has kinda a golden vision which is irony considering.

Buddhism has a different model than western psychology. In western psychology there are normal people and abnormal people. In buddhist psychology everyone is poisoned and everyone can practice the 8 fold path to feel less thirst and confusion.

Ric

Wow Jeff, your last paragraph really spoke to me. That is great insight and that is where I think I keep running into a wall.

BuckyG

I also didn't understand why the skandas were defined as self and other in a way I forget how he said it but it was leading into proof that there is not a self seemingly. I guess I can see that the idea of tanha is that we want the skandas to be all these different things, like the weather its hot or cold or whatever. Never satisfied.

Ajahn Sumedho, Ajahn Sucitto's teacher, refers to the "problem" of atta (self) and the khandas (aggregates) as The Problem Of Personality:

"Most of us are very committed to ourselves as personalities. The habit of viewing ourselves as a person is deeply ingrained in us. In Pali, that is called sakkaya-ditthi, which can be translated as “personality-view” or “the ego.” It means that we regard the five khandhas (groups)—body, feelings, perceptions, conceptions, and consciousness—as belonging to this person, as making up our identity. In investigating the personality-view, we do not grasp on to the perception of “no person” either. It is possible to take the concept of anatta (no self) and grasp that, and say, “There’s no self because the Buddha said there’s anatta!” But in that case we’re still grasping a perception. Grasping a perception of yourself as a nonself gets to be a bit ridiculous.

It is so easy for us to conceive the conditions we attach to. Yet with satipañña (discriminating alertness) and sati-sampajañña (awareness), we begin to awaken ourselves to the way it is, rather than being committed to the conventional realities. I want to emphasize that this awareness is there before you become something. This point cannot be repeated often enough, because even though cultivating awareness might appear very simple on the face of it, our mindset is definitely geared to believing in the personality-view as our fundamental reality. If you grasp on to the conditions you create, you will end up in the same place every time—suffering. But don’t simply believe me; explore it for yourself.

Instead of starting with a perception or a conception of anything, the Buddha established a way based on awareness, or awakened attention. This is an immanent act in the present. It is sati-sampajañña, an intuitive awareness that allows the consciousness to be with the present moment. With this attention, you begin to explore sakkaya-ditthi (personality-view) in terms of the perceptions you attach to as yourself.

So that one can truly explore the development of sakkaya-ditthi, I suggest deliberately conceiving of yourself as a certain person...."

continued at
http://archive.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2005/summer/sumedho.html

Best Wishes
bg

Jeffrey

Thanks BuckyG,

Here's a long story which will eventually get around to how this was fortuitous to read:

My brother flew in its the big time I got to see him. The first thing was whether or not to go with him and my mom to see his highschool friend. Their was a big family congregation. I hate being at loose ends not knowing people so I did not want to go. But I got bored had a good afternoon listening to Morrissey youtube and felt interested.

The surprising thing was how kind people treated me although I was awkward, but also my senses are much more heightened and I can tell people suffering, themselves anxious. I could say it is all about they are drinking but its more about me not drinking and noticing more than just my own boredom

So I was really worried about these people one family lived across the street from me growing up I can see problems, my brothers friend and his wife had some words that I overheard, and I have been saddened both by the pain and so forth that they are feeling and my own frustration, here I am awkward socially and not really that good at icebreakers.

Anyhow your piece reminded me that I just need to relax and not gnaw away at the problem but rather sit with it and feel deeply the wish to accomplish change yet feel the wish only rather than feel poor about myself.

Does this make sense? I had created this whole 'self' about what I had to do, but really its an ongoing situation and its probably a good thing I kept cool and held my tongue, whereas I didn't know how to help.

But I still feel a sadness. Not sure if this is on topic but I really had to write about this experience, thanks for reading.