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nirvana vs nihilism?
zen_world
Veteran
Okay guys I have been reading about the dependant origination and the five aggregates. So aacording to Buddha all our five aggregates will dissolve when we reach the ultimate truth-call it nirvana.
I am starting to question some of the basic understandings again. So when all the five aggregates dissolve, even the awareness of the sense faculties including mind then what else left. How is this not different than nihilism. The ego, the self, the mental factors, sense, consciousness, are all gone. If nothing left then Isn't this same as no existence, self destruction and.nihilism.
Even if not then it must be damn boring! It kinda scares me and I can't let go.
So yeah, help please!
I am starting to question some of the basic understandings again. So when all the five aggregates dissolve, even the awareness of the sense faculties including mind then what else left. How is this not different than nihilism. The ego, the self, the mental factors, sense, consciousness, are all gone. If nothing left then Isn't this same as no existence, self destruction and.nihilism.
Even if not then it must be damn boring! It kinda scares me and I can't let go.
So yeah, help please!
0
Comments
Nihilism is a very dangerous view, more harmful than getting attached to sense desires.
Emptiness isn't nothing, Emptiness is form, emptiness is existance.
"Generally speaking, there are two forms of meditation on emptiness. One is the space-like meditation on emptiness, which is characterised by the total absence or negation of inherent existence. The other is called the illusion-like meditation on emptiness. The space-like meditation must come first, because without the realisation of the total absence of inherent existence, the illusion-like perception or understanding will not occur.
For the illusion-like understanding of all phenomena to occur, there needs to be a composite of both the perception or appearance and the negation, so that when we perceive the world and engage with it we can view all things and events as resembling illusions. We will recognise that although things appear to us, they are devoid of objective, independent, intrinsic existence. This is how the illusion-like understanding arises. The author of the Eight Verses indicates the experiential result when he writes: 'May I, recognising all things as illusions, devoid of clinging, be released from bondage.'
When we speak of cultivating the illusion-like understanding of the nature of reality, we need to bear in mind the different interpretations of the term 'illusion-like'. The non-Buddhist Indian schools also speak of the illusion-like nature of reality, and there are different interpretations within Buddhist schools. For example, the Buddhist realist schools explain the nature of reality to be illusion-like in the sense that, although we tend to perceive things as having permanence, in reality they are changing moment by moment and it is this that gives them an illusion-like character.
In the context of our short text, the illusion-like nature of reality must be understood as relating to all things and events. Although we tend to perceive them as possessing some kind of intrinsic nature or existence, in reality they are all devoid of such reality. So there is a disparity between the way things appear to us and the way things really are. It is in this sense that things and events are said to have an illusion-like nature.
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As I mentioned earlier, many texts on emptiness state that the understanding of dependent origination is the most powerful means of arriving at the knowledge of emptiness. When, as a result of engaging in deep meditation on emptiness, we fail to find the intrinsic reality of the object of our focus, we do not conclude from this that the object in question does not exist at all. instead, we deduce that since our critical analysis has failed to find the true, independent existence of the object, its existence or reality must be understood only as dependent origination. Therefore, a genuine understanding of emptiness must really take place. The moment we reflect upon our understanding of the emptiness of inherent existence, that very understanding will indicate that things exist. it is almost as if when we hear the word 'emptiness' we should instantly recognise its implication, which is that of existing by means of dependent origination. A genuine understanding of emptiness, therefore, is said to be that in which one understands emptiness in terms of dependent origination.
A similar point is raised by Nagarjuna in his Precious Garland, where he explains the emptiness or selflessness of 'person' by a process of reductive analysis. This involves exploring how the person is neither the earth element nor the water element, fire element and so on. When this reductive process fails to find something called 'person' that is independent of these various elements, and also fails to identify the person with any of these elements, Nagarjuna raises the question: where, then, is the person? He does not immediately conclude by saying, 'Therefore "person" does not exist.' Rather, he refers to the idea of dependent origination, stating that: 'The person is therefore dependent upon the aggregation of the six elements.' Thus he is not negating the fact that the 'person' does exist and is real and undergoes experiences of pain and pleasure.
From my own experience I know that I exist; I know that I have non-deluded experiences of pain and pleasure. Yet when I search for the entity called 'self' or 'I' among the various elements that together constitute my existence, I cannot find anything that appears to possess intrinsic, independent reality. This is why Nagarjuna concludes that we can understand a person's existence only in terms of the principle of dependent origination.
At this point some people may raise the following objection: isn't saying that all phenomena are devoid of inherent existence tantamount to saying that nothing exists? Nagarjuna's response is to state that by 'emptiness' we do not mean a mere nothingness; rather, by 'emptiness' we mean dependent origination. In this way Nagarjuna's teaching on emptiness transcends the extremes of absolutism and nihilism. By rejecting intrinsic, independent existence his view transcends absolutism; and by stating that things and events do exist, albeit as dependent originations, he transcends the extreme of nihilism. This transcendence of the two extremes of absolutism and nihilism represents the true Middle Way.
At this point it may be helpful to reflect a little on the different levels of meaning of the principle of dependent origination. On one level dependent origination refers to the nature of things and events as understood in terms of their dependence upon causes and conditions. On another level this dependence can be understood more in terms of mutual dependence. For example, there is a mutuality of concepts between, say, long and short, in which something is posited as 'long' in relation to something else that is 'short'. Similarly, things and events have both parts and a whole; the whole is constituted of the parts, and the parts are posited in relation to the whole.
On another level still, the principle of dependent origination relates to the subject, which is the conceptual mind that creates designation, appellations, labels and so on. As we have briefly discussed before, when we give something a label or a name we generally tend to assume that the labelled object has some kind of true, independent existence. Yet when we search for the true existence or essence of the thing in question, we always fail to find it. Our conclusion, therefore, is that while things do exist on the conventional level, they do not possess ultimate, objective reality. Rather, their existence can only be posited as a mere appellation, designation or label. According to Nagarjuna, these three levels of meaning in the principle of dependent origination pervade our entire spectrum of reality."
READ THIS! over and over and over and over.
also basically anything you really need to know/realize is on this site.
it is a great reference!
Nihilism and Nirvana are emptiness with two different intentions.
Where they contrast, Nihilism is achieved by annihilation of the self; where as, Nirvana is achieved by compassion of the self. Where one seeks to reject, the other just accepts. One is an extreme form of skepticism, the other is understanding. The key word here is intent.
Nihilism and Nirvana compare in a very small area though. They both preclude self as an aspect of mystical experiences. That's not very scary.
"Gee!" But, that would be like having a choice between the way of a Buddhist or the way of a Nazi.
Deep respect:
According to dependent origination, greed, hatred & delusion "cease" (nirodha) to taint the five aggregates.
The fires/flames of greed, hatred & delusion extinguish/quench/cease (nirodha).
The following quotes make it clear the five aggregates do not cease.
There is no death after achieving nirvana.
The Buddha said the end of greed, hatred & delusion is the Deathless
The Buddha acheived Nirvana when he was 35 years old.
[Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.
"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition ....
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html]
If so ...
What have I "misinterpreted?"
Nothing I said is contradicted by your post. I said that those who have achieved the deathless are without death. That seems like a pretty simple statement. What does the Buddha achieving nirvana at 35 have anything to do with the fact that the Buddha has gone beyond death?