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Understanding Koans

uncaughtbynetuncaughtbynet
edited August 2011 in Buddhism Basics
Could someone please comment on the accuracy of this?

A Koan is a method for a teacher to help a student understand their true self. A seemingly paradoxical concept is described to the student that was concieved in the realm of the true self. It requires the student to clear their mind. The question and answer was born, and forever lies in the realm of Buddha. To retrieve the answer is to understand true nature. The act of seeing the answer dilutes the misconception about attachment and the answer is refined to only that which is needed in which to come to one's own understanding of their true nature. The response to give is only a hologram of the answer behind the walls of consciousness.

Is that accurate?

Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    The confusion is momentary. You already know the answer you just wait for the clarity that brings 'the answer'. Like the wind is already there and later there will be a wave.
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    The sky is blue but the clouds leave my building in shadow.
  • uncaughtbynetuncaughtbynet
    I'm not asking as a student trying to figure out the answer to a koan. I am asking as an individual who believes concepts exist outside of either of these 2 worlds. A master binding a concept to "true nature" ignores the reality that we don't all live 24/7 in that world. Not everyone is on the same page about what the meaning of life is. Wether or not you can walk freely between enlightenment and real life, does not solve the questions about the connection between enlightenment and real life.

    Are we supposed to figure this out, and then instantly forget it? How do you keep the knowledge of what you've learned, and still operate as a functioning member of society?

    I dug deep into myself and have found a treasure trove of interesting concepts that I now am beginning to understand.

    There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. But its a good idea to at least have the concept of the purpose of a path.

    Thanks
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    A path through the woods is made by many feet all walking over the same ground.
  • uncaughtbynetuncaughtbynet
    edited August 2011
    I am a visual person. could someone who understands this, just draw me a picture?

    if the same ground is walked on, then a path is not formed. Only when slightly different steps, and different length strides go in the same direction. What is the width of a foot?
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    give me a second to use paint :)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    An australian or an english foot?

    Er you know what they say about big feet! “Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Know what I mean?”
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    I'm not asking as a student trying to figure out the answer to a koan. I am asking as an individual who believes concepts exist outside of either of these 2 worlds. A master binding a concept to "true nature" ignores the reality that we don't all live 24/7 in that world. Not everyone is on the same page about what the meaning of life is. Wether or not you can walk freely between enlightenment and real life, does not solve the questions about the connection between enlightenment and real life.

    Are we supposed to figure this out, and then instantly forget it? How do you keep the knowledge of what you've learned, and still operate as a functioning member of society?

    I dug deep into myself and have found a treasure trove of interesting concepts that I now am beginning to understand.

    There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. But its a good idea to at least have the concept of the purpose of a path.

    Thanks
    The purpose of koans is to cut through conceptualization, not to elevate them to mystical status. Perhaps I've misread this, but it seems like you're running in the wrong direction.
  • uncaughtbynetuncaughtbynet
    If you are going to paint such a blurry picture, please give me your glasses.
  • YishaiYishai Veteran
    edited August 2011
    People typically have a bunch of preconceptions and chatter and delusions. Koans cut through all this. Everything shatters and falls away. It's a moment of clarity, of realization.

    In that moment, there is no ego, no grasping, no suffering, just reality.

    That's the purpose of a koan. It _introduces_ the student to true nature of self. It's almost like an "Aha!" moment.

    Just because a student is introduced to true nature doesn't mean they instantly become enlightened.

    As far as I knew, there are no absolute correct responses to a koan. Not one ultimate true answer.
  • uncaughtbynetuncaughtbynet
    edited August 2011
    Is the correct answer only situational to the life of the student? showing not only the "ah", but the attainment of originating source? and only one's Master can decide?

    I don't have a Master. I reached a point that I can only describe as awareness of a lower level of consciousness. Wether or not it is true enlightenment does not matter. I am not here to become a zen master, nor do i have time to debate what time or space are. My goal here is to follow this path that has lead me here, and will surely someday continue away.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited August 2011
    Awareness is not a lower level of consciousness, but exists at all levels of consciousness.
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    Koan study requires a master.
  • uncaughtbynetuncaughtbynet
    edited August 2011
    Are we not all our own Master?
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    A koan is not a situation that requires an answer. It only requires the truth. It is like getting into a profound conversation about humor or Buddhism or koans ... blah, blah, blah, everyone scowling and looking solemn.

    And then someone laughs.

    Your life, your choice. Just don't be an idiot.
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    Are we not all our own Master?
    Would a master need to ask?
  • uncaughtbynetuncaughtbynet
    edited August 2011
    Thank you Talisman. Must listen to master.
  • GuiGui Veteran
    reason need not apply
  • uncaughtbynetuncaughtbynet
    I'm not buddhist, nor looking to attain enlightenment. I live in reality, and need to focus on landmarks ahead of me that physically exist in context of my 5 senses. I've bounced off of buddism while working out several converging and related events in my life pertaining to motivation of work, immense challenge, clarity of vision, and reorganization of my mind condensing together to a singular solution rooting on the oposite side of the boundary of my conscious mind.

    I thank you for your comments, and your willingness to devote a portion of your own self to thinking about me and my questions.
  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    Keep on keeping on, friend.
  • uncaughtbynetuncaughtbynet
    It has been like reading a story of answers that I was searching for. What do people know about digital social interaction??
    I seem to have come out of nowhere and BAM. into the deep end of what the meaning of life is and everything.

    I'm not sure where I am, or what is going on. Do zen masters have iPhones?
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    Could someone please comment on the accuracy of this?

    A Koan is a method for a teacher to help a student understand their true self. A seemingly paradoxical concept is described to the student that was concieved in the realm of the true self. It requires the student to clear their mind. The question and answer was born, and forever lies in the realm of Buddha. To retrieve the answer is to understand true nature. The act of seeing the answer dilutes the misconception about attachment and the answer is refined to only that which is needed in which to come to one's own understanding of their true nature. The response to give is only a hologram of the answer behind the walls of consciousness.

    Is that accurate?
    You lost me somewhere in the middle of the paragraph. I've practiced Kwan Um Zen which uses koans, and while koans are used and approached slightly differently in various Zen schools, I think all of them would say you're intellectualizing and making it much too hard.

    Koans are not nonsense and can be commented upon, and fall into several catagories. Some koans point to your Buddha Nature and ask "What are you?" and some point to reality and ask "What is this?"

    They have a sort of shorthand Zen code built in that helps to understand the setup. Some don't translate very well into a Western culture. Some are universal.





  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    I'm not buddhist, nor looking to attain enlightenment. I live in reality, and need to focus on landmarks ahead of me that physically exist in context of my 5 senses. I've bounced off of buddism while working out several converging and related events in my life pertaining to motivation of work, immense challenge, clarity of vision, and reorganization of my mind condensing together to a singular solution rooting on the oposite side of the boundary of my conscious mind.

    I thank you for your comments, and your willingness to devote a portion of your own self to thinking about me and my questions.
    Thanks for the background. It gives me a better idea of where you're coming from. If you are interested in koans and want to explore the general direction they are supposed to take you, I have yet to encounter a better writer than John Tarrant Roshi. His Teishos on koans are lovely, give a good context of the cases discussed and prods the reader/listener to go deeper. You can read some of his free writings here (pardon the long URL, it's a search from Dharmaweb):

    http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&safe=active&client=pub-6106633324773813&cof=FORID:1;GL:1;LBGC:336699;LC:#0000ff;VLC:#663399;GFNT:#0000ff;GIMP:#0000ff;DIV:#336699;&domains=Dharmaweb.org&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&q=john+tarrant+roshi+koan&btnG=Search&sitesearch=Dharmaweb.org

    You may also want to purchase (or borrow from your library) his book called "Bring Me the Rhinoceros: And Other Zen Koans to Bring You Joy":

    http://www.amazon.com/Bring-Me-Rhinoceros-Other-Koans/dp/1400047641

    Hope you find what you're looking for :)

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