Tone of discussions

Dakini

Mts. it's strange that you would have the impression you expressed in your OP, because the last few months I've been thinking how pleasant and mellow the discussions have been for the most part. The tone has changed radically and for the better since last fall and early winter. And I distintly recall several posts by Vinlyn over the months, saying that this is a good forum with good people.

@Prometheus-- good point. We had a thread once about how posts can be misunderstood because of the limitations of the written medium. It helps to make an extra effort to be clear about one's intentions, by issuing a sort of disclaimer, like: "I don't mean to needle you, I'm genuinely curious", or,"I'm not making fun of you, ...", that sort of thing.

As for zen_world, I just figured maybe he got up on the wrong side of the bed today, or hit a rough patch in life. We can deal with that. I haven't noticed any "combative" threads or comments from him before this week.

...or maybe the forum has hit a little rough patch, lol! Relax, everybody.

vinlyn

And, there were times over the years when I would have to work on a committee to write some similar type of document. Those kinds of tasks would be quite a challenge, but ultimately we would compromise and come up with a document that everyone could agree with and live within. I doubt the members of this forum could do so...and I myself might very well be one of the problems.

WRONG! You cannot comprimise the truth...truth is truth...if you take it and squeeze it twist it just to make it agreeable to others than you are creating a fabrication. Thats the point...

Zen, I didn't mention compromising on "a truth". Our work was more along policies lines.

Prometheus

You bring up an interesting point. Before I retired as a school principal, I was sometimes accused of writing memos that "had a real tone" to them. So one day I had to put a memo out to the staff -- forgot what it was about now. I had my two assistant principals and a teacher leader read it, and I told them I had written with the intent of being merely informational...with no tone. They agreed it was just a basic statement of facts with absolutely no tone. Of course, even after the memo went out, several teachers complained about the tone of the memo. I think sometimes tone is perceived when one doesn't like the message.

Exactly.

Prometheus

It helps to make an extra effort to be clear about one's intentions, by issuing a sort of disclaimer, like: "I don't mean to needle you, I'm genuinely curious", or,"I'm not making fun of you, ...", that sort of thing.

Yes, good point.

not1not2

As an aside, I often find that cognitive dissonance, even in the context of an argument reveals the most about where I am at. And regardless of my feelings of where other people are at with their method of communication, etc, my focus should be on my own actions. It also shows me a lot about my expectations and mental investment into how things should be. I may even be correct (and boy I feel like I am right now), but when I let these situations get to me, this just means I have to get further along in my own practice.

Now, that does not change the fact that I don't think certain tones, methods of communication, etc make discussion a negative environment unnecessarily, but it does make me reflect on how I let my expectations, especially the ones I consider the most fair and reasonable, affect my state of mind. I wish that others could see things the same way that I do, of course, and I feel reasonably certain that I've been recognizing my own possibility of error where I don't feel others have, but I should not be letting this play out this way, as it affects myself and others in the negative as well.

Anyway, I don't take back my previously stated assertions, but I think I've gotten past the point of feeling the need to make further issue out of it. Certain behaviors still rub me the wrong way and it will still give rise to negative thoughts, but I should be turning that into reflection rather than reaction.

Alright, I guess I feel satisfied with my self-defense, etc now, so that's that, lol.

Jeffrey

I have been experiencing a lot of kleshas. Tension and irritability. I try to be positive in some threads, but regretably I get caught up in things in some of the threads where I disagree strongly or have a particular irritation. The thing is you go through your day with this tension and then kind of mindlessly act it out. I think it is a stress thing.

Implicit in this is that I am not wrong for disagreeing rather I am suffering agitation and thus not thinking clearly and expressing gently and to benefit.

I am sorry a newcomer would be dissuaded

DhammaDhatu

Perhaps the tone is actually a comment on a "lack of sensitivity" to real issues. Paying heed to those issues engenders mutual respect and trust. While there may have been no ill-wil on your part, that is likely where that was coming from.

Tone varies according to the proper time

For example, when folks wish to discuss their personal problems, tones are empathetic because folks take what is said seriously. folks have compassion

But when folks post non-sense about their esoteric insights then naturally tone changes

This is what is meant by "the proper time"

When folks post non-sense about their esoteric insights, it is the proper time for Mara to pay them a visit, just like when Mara visited the Buddha often to test the reality of his attainment

:eek:

MindGate

We are NOT combative. Mountains, I think you're losing it. We NEVER argue. God, some of you people are just plain insane. I'm thinking of leaving, personally, because of you people ACCUSING US OF ARGUING AND BEING RUDE. Like, just be quiet and leave the forum if you think that.

:rolleyes:

Jokes.

tmottes

I don't think that it means that anything goes, but it does mean that each person may come to insights through their own individual suffering. I have no direct realization of this, but I believe that there are as many paths as there are living creatures. That isn't to say there isn't a structure to the path, but just that we can only remember the path we have been on and see the path we are on currently. The problem with a forum is there is just a lot of mental masturbation going on here, myself highly included. Egos are powerful and subtle.

First, thanks for making me laugh.

The rest...well, I'll have to think more on it. Although we don't always agree, I like reading your posts...they make me think.

Glad you were able to laugh . And I glad we feel the same way about each others' posts as well. I learn more from those whose perspective is most unlike mine .

Jeffrey

"what is posted here are just opinions, just words

intolerance masks itself is so many ways, the most deceptive mask being "goodness"

imo, folks need to learn to respect the opinions of others and learn to take responsiblity for what they write

so if we write something and receive a disagreeable reply, that is due to what we wrote

Buddhism does not recommend we blame others for our state of mind"

This seems about right. You have to be a little tough to get the fruit of the internet discussions of buddhism. I learned that in aol chat but boy there is some bad behaviour. You have to be sincere about what you are doing and not get to freaked out by strangers etc.. The people you find are unfamiliar and have not established themselves as your protectors/friends hence it is uncomfortable. *this is all to the newcomer here*. So just take care of how you treat others and focus on the content of the discussion rather than the 'drama' of who is doing what to whom and who is right and wrong (this is in need of interpretation obviously you see both but the point is not to get overwhelmed by resentment).

Jeffrey

"There's a benefit to having a "big tent", but there doesn't seem to be any boundaries at all."

Vinylyn its not so spread out on a face to face sangha. There are so many mandalas amongst all the people here. A mandala is a set of values or principls extending outward to their circle of influence. Here there are so many. Such as drugs/no etc.. At the boundaries between mandalas is tension and emotion.

Also gentle speach (again I a hipocrit) and true peace will help you see that people are beautiful no matter how deluded. Thus there is peace even though someone is destroying themselves. And even though things are confusing. Buddhism promises that. Lasting Nirvana. Buddhism is not the world of children nor is it the world of logicians.

Jeffrey

"In my own experience, I can avoid personal attacks, avoid name-calling, avoid cursing, and just stick to the actual discussion with the nicest possible intentions regarding tone, but quite often the other person will still perceive my tone to be harsh and negative if my opinion happens to disagree with theirs.

Yes, the poster has to moderate their tone, but I also think post-readers shouldn't be so quick to be offended. Just take a second look and see whether the poster is really attacking you, really calling you names, really questioning your intelligence, etc. If so, call them out on it and point out specifically how they did so. If not, then there's no need to be offended. Then hey you might have a nice discussion, you might learn something, you might live longer. Otherwise, all your 'offendedness' is doing is cultivating needless anger while silencing anyone who thinks differently to you."

:thumbsup:

Jeffrey

Many of us are not feeling so happy and we are easily upset.

Hubris

Wow.

There's some serious bullying going on here, all in the name of having to be "right". The mods are right, you could conceivably scare off potential new members with the bickering and the drama. Admittedly, I too (even though I've been here maybe two weeks) have been guilty in a couple of responses, and I feel some kind of way that maybe my good intentions may have hurt someone.

Intent truly does matter, however the written word is always suspect because you are not looking into someone's eyes,hearing the tone of the voice, or seeing their body language. I imagine this conversation to have been far less heated and respectful in person.

How can this be considered a sangha or even a safe place if we cannot agree to disagree - respectfully?

DhammaDhatu

...The mods are right, you could conceivably scare off potential new members with the bickering and the drama.

OK then...we will be nice from now on

However, I think we are nice to newbies

We love newbies and especially love you Hubris

:wave:

Cloud

I think that if we choose to practice restraint, to control our speech, we can overcome these grudges that lead to arguments throughout multiple threads. It's usually groups of two people that don't like each other, for whatever reasons, that continue to stir everything up and make it a sad place for everyone.

Luckily there is a staff of admins and moderators here that will only take so much, and will eventually deep freeze the entire hornets' nest if people can't learn to get along.

One of the best tactics I've seen, if you find yourself in such a situation, is to stop responding to posts directed toward you that make you want to fight in defense. Just ignore them. If they're clearly meant for contentious purposes, flag them and let the staff know and stay out of it yourself. That takes one person out of it by their own self-control, and the other through staff intervention.

Dandelion

As a relative newcomer I found this forum to be a little combative too. I think in part it is sadly the nature of all forums. The problem is, that sometimes tone is down to the person writing, AND the others receiving, in terms of perception. Sometimes I do feel like it's not really that ambiguous when someone is just being plain rude but there does seem to be this vast middle grey area when it is unclear which is just frustrating. Certainly in the Buddhism for beginners section people should be very patient with those of us that are indeed beginners and when we ask questions that are perceived as a bit daft, ignorant, pointless, - it's part of our learning process - that's why we're here, because we don't know and want to explore this new found interest, 'Buddhism'
As a young child I could not wait to be an adult. I thought how marvellous to be all grown up, when i'm all grown up i'll be like all other adults and just 'know' all the time what the right thing to do and say is, life will be so much easier!' Of course, as an adult I realise that life isn't like that! So, on a very personal note i'm far too sensitive to what I perceive as hostility or undue harshness and it's just something I have to learn to live with. If I ever upset someone on here I would really like to know as it would never be my intention and I would like to apologise if that has ever and does ever happen. It would also be helpful to me as I can then re read what I have written and learn from it and try to put the situation right, as I don't really believe that the best way to get a point across is via the process of causing someone to feel that you are being hostile or angry etc. So, I think it's a two fold issue... it's down to the person writing something and the person reading something. Maybe if we're unclear if someone is being hostile we try to find a way to clear the air (perhaps through a private message) before continuing whatever is being debated and having it escalate further into angry post followed by angry post. Or, just simply walk away, and leave it at that, and hope that they next conversation with the person is less negative and to try not to hold a grudge. Feeding our own negative energies by engaging in battle with someone that has ruffled our feathers doesn't really pose any real purpose, and makes both people feel unhappy, and that is a long way from a healthy debate.

There are a lot of really interesting topics on here, and a lot of people that get their message across in ways that I don't think upset anyone. Maybe it's also important to be mindful of our own state of mind when replying; if we're having a hard time in life, or a bad day it might show in how we communicate and perhaps a reply to a thread is best left till we have had a bit of time to meditate, unwind or we're just simply in 'a better mood'.

Dandelion

Cinorjer

And, there were times over the years when I would have to work on a committee to write some similar type of document. Those kinds of tasks would be quite a challenge, but ultimately we would compromise and come up with a document that everyone could agree with and live within. I doubt the members of this forum could do so...and I myself might very well be one of the problems.

WRONG! You cannot comprimise the truth...truth is truth...if you take it and squeeze it twist it just to make it agreeable to others than you are creating a fabrication. Thats the point...

Zenm, I'll use your same attitude back at you to tell you that's a load of crap. The "truth" is often used as a weapon to attack people, and then when called on the rudeness, the defense is always a smirk and "Well, I was only telling the truth." You don't get to tell people what the "truth" is in a forum. All you have are your opinions, same as us. All you're saying is that you think you are right and that's not special at all. The world is full of obnoxious people who insist on yelling about how right they are.

It's not about truth. It's about some basic courtesy and caring about other people's feelings. And no, it's not "their fault" if they get upset over insulting posts and hey, frack 'em if they can't take the heat. There's a difference between people being over sensitive and getting slapped in the face with an insult to their practice or beliefs.

So the question is, are you capable and willing to consider people's feelings when you post, and ask yourself if what you're posting is rude and insulting? It doesn't matter what you think it is, Buddhism is a religion to most people that stresses compassion and emphasizes Right Speech. If you just don't care, then what are you actually doing on the board? Enjoying a good argument?

And to the moderators, no topic that says "Just Be" Crap and starts off rudely telling people they don't know what they were talking about should have been allowed to stay on a Buddhist board, and anyone posting here should know better. It's no wonder you get complaints. I enjoy not having a moderator slamming people with rules all the time, but the job does come with the responsibiltiy to step in when people go too far.

Linc

WRONG!

JERK!

If you start your reply in all capital letters and an exclamation mark to denounce someone, they tend to take it personally and not care what the rest of your comment said. Last time: simmer down.