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Tone of discussions

MountainsMountains Veteran
edited August 2011 in Buddhism Basics
I've had a couple of messages recently from newcomers here to the effect that they perceive this forum as being very tense and combative. They want to know if it's always like this on Newbuddhist.com. Sadly, I've had to say that often it is. But I've also counseled them that there are always personalities, and often things get taken completely the wrong way on internet forums.

But... there *are* an awfully lot of posts here that any rational person would find pretty tense and often combative. I think it's incumbent upon *all* of us to moderate the tone of our postings, especially in Buddhism for Beginners. The last thing we want to do is frighten newcomers away just for the sake of massaging our egos.

Mindfulness in all things.

Peace...

_/\_
«1

Comments

  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    I have a feeling you point your finger at me.
    As long as there is no personal attacks and curse language, its fine.
    Sometimes it is necessary to hit with the hammer to get your message go thru.
    We used to have lives where our ego likes to be treated all nice and friendly. Let me tell you something, only truth matters. Personal attacks and curse languagge cannot be tolerated because it is far from the truth.
  • painpain
    It's not about what you say, it's about how you say it.

    It's okay to have different personal views, just do it with kindness. :)
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    I think everyone here has been well-intended, but occasionally goes a little too far in either their assessment of what the other person was saying or in their language. When you talk on a forum, the interaction is very limited and it's hard to convey nuance. So, we must take extra care to not make our points without assuming that the person we're responding too communicated exactly what they meant, or that we understood what was being communicated. We all fail in expressing ourselves and we all fail in reading other people (especially in this kind of a medium). We need to me mindful that failure in communication is a two way street and that we need to show each other some leniency in our responses. Say things like, "i'm not sure "x" what you meant, but it's important to keep "y" in mind because of "z", rather than "x" is wrong, I can't believe how stupid you must be!

    Creating threads about how someone's personal, contextual insight is "crap" is derogatory, divisive and arguably arrogant. Make your points on the dangers of taking that insight in the wrong direction, please. I am concerned about making mistakes and I'm not a practicing Buddhist for my amusement or personal identification. I appreciate counterpoints and words of warning. But don't assume that just because I expressed something without making all the points you want to make that I'm not aware of those things. Chances are I've left them out in order to not take away from my initial point. And even if not, there's no need to belittle me in the process of bringing new or contradictory information to my attention.

    Anyway, here is a nice link on samma vaca/right speech:

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/

    This part especially:
    The criteria for deciding what is worth saying

    [1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

    [2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

    [3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

    [4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

    [5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

    [6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

    — MN 58
    We will all fail at this, and likely will have to filter out negative emotions that come up in the process of posting, but these are some pretty good guidelines to what we say here and everywhere.

  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    It's not about what you say, it's about how you say it.

    It's okay to have different personal views, just do it with kindness. :)
    Oh! It is not about how I say it, it is about what I say.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    It's not about what you say, it's about how you say it.

    It's okay to have different personal views, just do it with kindness. :)
    Oh! It is not about how I say it, it is about what I say.
    It's about both.

  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited August 2011
    But... there *are* an awfully lot of posts here that any rational person would find pretty tense and often combative. I think it's incumbent upon *all* of us to moderate the tone of our postings, especially in Buddhism for Beginners. The last thing we want to do is frighten newcomers away just for the sake of massaging our egos.
    Projecting quite heavy above with aspersions. The post is way off the mark.

    Thus it has been said: "The blind cannot lead the blind".

    I doubt anyone here is massaging their egos.

    When a poster declares they are "enlightened" or attained a supernormal state of mind, it is proper Buddhist behaviour to "test" those claims

    In other words, this issue should not arise on the Beginners Forum because certain things should not be discussed on the Beginners Forums, such as "my jhana" , "I am a non-returner", "I have seen my past lives", etc,...

    :-/
  • painpain
    edited August 2011
    It's not about what you say, it's about how you say it.

    It's okay to have different personal views, just do it with kindness. :)
    Oh! It is not about how I say it, it is about what I say.
    You can say the cup is half empty. You can say the cup is half full. They mean the same thing.

    You can say something with hostility and self-righteousness. You can say the same thing with kindness and humility.

    With metta. :)
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    It's not about what you say, it's about how you say it.

    It's okay to have different personal views, just do it with kindness. :)
    Oh! It is not about how I say it, it is about what I say.
    It's about both.

    No. It is about what I say only. The truth matters nothing else. If you don't like what I say because I didn't dear your ego then too bad! Its your problem not mine.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    It's not about what you say, it's about how you say it.

    It's okay to have different personal views, just do it with kindness. :)
    Oh! It is not about how I say it, it is about what I say.
    It's about both.

    No. It is about what I say only. The truth matters nothing else. If you don't like what I say because I didn't dear your ego then too bad! Its your problem not mine.
    If you are unconcerned about the correctness of your assertions or whether they are well received, I'd say that you've got a few problems of your own to address.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited August 2011
    lol

    what is posted here are just opinions, just words

    intolerance masks itself is so many ways, the most deceptive mask being "goodness"

    imo, folks need to learn to respect the opinions of others and learn to take responsiblity for what they write

    so if we write something and receive a disagreeable reply, that is due to what we wrote

    Buddhism does not recommend we blame others for our state of mind

    :)
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    edited August 2011

    If you are unconcerned about the correctness of your assertions or whether they are well received, I'd say that you've got a few problems of your own to address.
    Well recieved, well for whom? How do you know who recieved it well and who didn't? How do you know you will not benefit from what I say (no matter how I say it) in the future? How I say it irrelevant - of course I shouldn't say it because of anger or hate etc. Because with anger and hate, I wouldn't be talking the truth. Hate and anger make us blind...A blind can't see the truth. But thats different..

    Of course I am concerned about the correctness of my assertions. Where did you get that idea? Don't assume anything.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    But... there *are* an awfully lot of posts here that any rational person would find pretty tense and often combative. I think it's incumbent upon *all* of us to moderate the tone of our postings, especially in Buddhism for Beginners. The last thing we want to do is frighten newcomers away just for the sake of massaging our egos.
    Projecting quite heavy above with aspersions. The post is way off the mark.

    Thus it has been said: "The blind cannot lead the blind".

    I doubt anyone here is massaging their egos.

    When a poster declares they are "enlightened" or attained a supernormal state of mind, it is proper Buddhist behaviour to "test" those claims

    In other words, this issue should not arise on the Beginners Forum because certain things should not be discussed on the Beginners Forums, such as "my jhana" , "I am a non-returner", "I have seen my past lives", etc,...

    :-/
    Now, this is what I perceive when I read your posts. First, you frame the discussion in the way that you want to and make judgements without considering that you yourself are missing something. The "my jhana" point is a perfect example of this. I am seeing things from a different perspective than you here. That's all their is to it. I recognize that in the jhanas, ego involvement is not present, but I think you are being absolutist about the language used. The buddha himself used conventional speech and understood that while the notion of self has no true foundation, that it is acceptable to utilize conventional designations in speech, lest we make everything into a meaningless jumble that confuses those who listen. Perhaps it is more correct to say "the mind was in a state of Jhana", but if someone says I reached the first Jhana during a meditation retreat three years ago, their use of pronouns does not automatically rule out the possibility that jhana was achieved.

    In regard to the 'non-returner' argument, being highly doubtful is a natural action and probability says that the person making such a claim hasn't gotten as far as they believe. But laughing is unhelpful is not a necessary component of questioning their claim.

    Now, as I said before, I'm going to assume that people have the best of intentions, even when being cutting in their remarks, but that is not the best way of pointing out errors, mistakes unless you have established a relationship where that is an accepted method of communication. By taking such a tone with others, you are placing yourself in the position of a teacher when we have no way of assessing whether you are worthy of that position. Express your concerns, point out the unlikelihood of things, etc, etc, but you aren't trying hard enough if you think this is the best you can do.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    I'm not pointing a finger at *anyone*. I'm pointing a finger at *everyone*, including myself.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited August 2011
    Now, this is what I perceive when I read your posts.
    Indeed. Well spoken. Truthfully spoken. Faultlessly spoken.

    It is what 'you' perceive. :rolleyes:
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran

    If you are unconcerned about the correctness of your assertions or whether they are well received, I'd say that you've got a few problems of your own to address.
    Well recieved, well for whom? How do you know who recieved it well and who didn't? How do you know you will not benefit from what I say (no matter how I say it) in the future? How I say it irrelevant - of course I shouldn't say it because of anger or hate etc. Because with anger and hate, I wouldn't be talking the truth. Hate and anger make us blind...A blind can't see the truth. But thats different..

    Of course I am concerned about the correctness of my assertions. Where did you get that idea? Don't assume anything.
    And yet you make statements that are not well received and when this is pointed out, you get defensive and tell us not to assume. Guess what, your posts come across as harsh and abrasive. In the likely event that the person you feel is not enlightened is not enlightened, they will likely become defensive, regard you as a jerk and not even hear the content of your posts. If you are truly concerned about the person you are giving advice to, then you SHOULD take this a little more seriously. Yes that's my opinion, but it's based on my own reaction to your posting style, even though I recognize there are valid points behind what you are saying. I'm going to assume that others may feel similarly, and this thread gives me at least a little validation for that assumption.

    Now, that's my advice, my opinion. I'm not enlightened, but I'm not exactly new at this either. I've been studying/practicing for about 8 or 9 years now and I am trying to speak from my experience. Feel free to disregard what I have to say, but just keep in mind that others may treat you in kind.

  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    Now, this is what I perceive when I read your posts.
    Indeed. Well spoken. Truthfully spoken. Faultlessly spoken.

    It is what 'you' perceive. :rolleyes:
    And yet, perhaps you should be a bit more mindful of how what you say is perceived:
    [3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.
    This is the proper time. :)

  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited August 2011
    Also, there is always the chance that what I have perceived is not merely my own perception. It would seem that you are disregarding that possibility, or are not taking it very seriously.

    Put in non-samma-vaca terms:

    You are coming across as an arrogant jerk who disregards and deflects virtually anything someone posts that doesn't fall in line with what you already said. Your responses in this thread fall into this categorization and you are failing to dispell my assertion in a repeated basis. Your speech is not living up to samma vaca and it makes me want to ignore everything you have to say. Fortunately though, I am aware this might be a false perception or at least not entirely correct and I am MORE concerned about not making mistakes myself than I am about your negative, condescending tone.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    edited August 2011

    In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.
    That is not blanket permission to say anything you want in any way you want at any time however...
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    edited August 2011

    Feel free to disregard what I have to say, but just keep in mind that others may treat you in kind.

    And I treat them in kind:)
    There is nothing kinder than speaking the truth...
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited August 2011
    *waits for another dismissive response that takes no responsibility for your role in this exchange*

    (i know I know, you are just speaking the truth from your lofty pedestal)
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran

    Feel free to disregard what I have to say, but just keep in mind that others may treat you in kind.

    And I treat them in kind:)
    There is nothing kinder than speaking the truth...
    Perhaps you should work on the eightfold path instead.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    don't be too softy...forget about the words fuck, shit, crap, asshole...they are all words....pay attention to the message...
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    don't be too softy...forget about the words fuck, shit, crap, asshole...they are all words....pay attention to the message...
    Pay attention to the fact that you've made multiple wrong assertions and that your tone is not up to par, unhelpful and creates a contentious environment.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran


    Pay attention to the fact that you've made multiple wrong assertions
    State them, show me... be specific...don't play games...

    and that your tone is not up to par, unhelpful and creates a contentious environment.
    My tone is not important as long as it is not hateful...
    unhelpful/contentious=these are your projections...

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I'm not pointing a finger at *anyone*. I'm pointing a finger at *everyone*, including myself.
    I think Mountains has been doing an excellent job of moderating. I've been on other Buddhist sites where I witnessed moderators being bullies, and that is certainly not true about this forum, and Mountains and Lincoln gets pats on the back from me.

    Oddly enough, the more I participate in Buddhist forums, the more I begin to believe that Buddhism is not the answer. What frustrates me is the extremes (that while more gentle here, are evident on many Buddhist forums) of belief.

    On the one hand, you have people who essentially say, "If you don't do x, y, and z, then you're not a Buddhist." I think a fair part of a discussion is -- "What are the most basic beliefs that make it reasonable to see yourself as a Buddhist?" Note, I still leave the question up to the individual, but I think it's a fair debate to see a consensus can be reached about the basic Buddhist beliefs that are reasonable for all Buddhists.

    On the other extreme, you have people who want to conduct their lives any old way they want to. And while they have the moral right to do so, it seems to me that any valid belief system has some boundaries.

    My guess is that frustrations similar to mine are what sometimes lead to blunt discussions here on the forum. I know that there are evenings when I step away from the computer after being on this forum that I debate whether I should simply walk away from Buddhism all together.



  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    Anyway, I think it's clear that this conversation is heading nowhere. Even just a partial admission that maybe, just maybe we all share responsibility here for the way our exchanges go would be nice, but I'm done holding my breath. The way that my genuine concerns are being blown off because the people I'm talking to are just so much more correct than I am is incredibly annoying and off-putting. I will use the emotions that are arising as a matter to reflect, but that does not mean that I am in the wrong here.

    *bows out of any further unproductive convo*
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited August 2011
    :rant: an arrogant jerk :rant:
    :-/
    :rant: makes me want to ignore everything you have to say.:rant:
    you are free to believe "you" attained jhana
    :rant: Fortunately though, I am aware this might be a false perception or at least not entirely correct and I am MORE concerned about not making mistakes myself than I am about your negative, condescending tone.:rant:
    dude... :(
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited August 2011
    I COMPLETELY DISAGREE THAT WE'RE COMBATIVE! I'LL ARGUE WITH ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE! I KNOW EVERYTHING!

    Seriously, though, I agree with @Mountains and I think we could all be a little bit more moderate and less combative in some of our exchanges, especially with newcomers.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    Anyway, I think it's clear that this conversation is heading nowhere. Even just a partial admission that maybe, just maybe we all share responsibility here for the way our exchanges go would be nice, but I'm done holding my breath. The way that my genuine concerns are being blown off because the people I'm talking to are just so much more correct than I am is incredibly annoying and off-putting. I will use the emotions that are arising as a matter to reflect, but that does not mean that I am in the wrong here.

    *bows out of any further unproductive convo*
    I understand your concerns...Trust me I get it...
    But I am a buddhist who accepts only the truths...I will apologize right away if I talk anything false! But you need to show me.
    My tone has nothing to do with it...My tone is not a fact! You can twist it anyway you like it...It is your projection..Show me the fact about my correct/false statement? I am waiting...

  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    instead of projecting our judgmental opinions, why don't we start a thread asking why the tone of some posts appear combative?

    :clap:
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran
    instead of projecting our judgmental opinions, why don't we start a thread asking why the tone of some posts appear combative?

    :clap:
    true...
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited August 2011


    I understand your concerns...Trust me I get it...
    But I am a buddhist who accepts only the truths...I will apologize right away if I talk anything false! But you need to show me.
    My tone has nothing to do with it...My tone is not a fact! You can twist it anyway you like it...It is your projection..Show me the fact about my correct/false statement? I am waiting...

    fact 1: I clearly stated that I hadn't attained any of the jhanas.

    fact 2: My discussion regard to the jhanas was merely whether using conventional designations (aka pronouns) discounted the possibility of having attained the jhanas.

    fact 3: You made factual assertions that those who disagreed with you did not understand what it means to surrender without having any way to know such a thing in any factual sense.

    I'm sure I could go on, but I am not convinced there would be a point as you've already ignored/missed the first few times I've stated these things
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited August 2011
    You mean like someone starting a thread with the title "Just Be" Crap, and an opening statement that most of us don't know what we're talking about?

    Sorry folks, but some people simply enjoy being rude. They use the internet as a safe place to indulge in speech that would earn them a punch in the nose in real life. It's not something that needs brought to their attention, because they know very well they're being rude. They just don't care and you're not going to change that.

    So your choice is always to ignore rude posters, put up with them, argue with them, or ban them. Don't expect them to change, because they're having too much fun.

  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    I have a feeling you point your finger at me.
    Maybe that's a problem in itself.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran

    fact 1: I clearly stated that I hadn't attained any of the jhanas.

    fact 2: My discussion regard to the jhanas was merely whether using conventional designations (aka pronouns) discounted the possibility of having attained the jhanas.

    fact 3: You made factual assertions that those who disagreed with you did not understand what it means to surrender without having any way to know such a thing in any factual sense.

    I'm sure I could go on, but I am not convinced there would be a point as you've already ignored/missed the first few times I've stated these things
    Wow. My friend you are really confused:) fact1 and fact2 have nothing to do with me. I didn't even comment about your jhanas. I replied to DD on that thread and that's it. I didn't even know you said you achieved jhana:) you confused me probably with DD.


  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    the more I participate in Buddhist forums, the more I begin to believe that Buddhism is not the answer.
    Even as a forum owner, I'm more apt to blame that on forums than I am on Buddhism.

  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    @not1not2 @zen_world Both of you, knock it off. Take a breather. Take a day off from the forums. Ignore each other. Pick something or I'll pick for you.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    the more I participate in Buddhist forums, the more I begin to believe that Buddhism is not the answer.
    Even as a forum owner, I'm more apt to blame that on forums than I am on Buddhism.

    I agree. You know, I'm talking here about my own spiritual crisis -- not about this forum. The problem I'm having is discovering that there doesn't seem to be -- among practitioners -- a general consensus about what Buddhism is. There's a benefit to having a "big tent", but there doesn't seem to be any boundaries at all.



  • jupitermadcatjupitermadcat
    Just Humans being Humans I'm Afraid.
  • PrometheusPrometheus
    edited August 2011
    In my own experience, I can avoid personal attacks, avoid name-calling, avoid cursing, and just stick to the actual discussion with the nicest possible intentions regarding tone, but quite often the other person will still perceive my tone to be harsh and negative if my opinion happens to disagree with theirs.

    Yes, the poster has to moderate their tone, but I also think post-readers shouldn't be so quick to be offended. Just take a second look and see whether the poster is really attacking you, really calling you names, really questioning your intelligence, etc. If so, call them out on it and point out specifically how they did so. If not, then there's no need to be offended. Then hey you might have a nice discussion, you might learn something, you might live longer. Otherwise, all your 'offendedness' is doing is cultivating needless anger while silencing anyone who thinks differently to you.
  • tmottestmottes Veteran
    edited August 2011
    the more I participate in Buddhist forums, the more I begin to believe that Buddhism is not the answer.
    Even as a forum owner, I'm more apt to blame that on forums than I am on Buddhism.

    I agree. You know, I'm talking here about my own spiritual crisis -- not about this forum. The problem I'm having is discovering that there doesn't seem to be -- among practitioners -- a general consensus about what Buddhism is. There's a benefit to having a "big tent", but there doesn't seem to be any boundaries at all.

    @vinlyn Correct me if I am wrong, but is that not partly why the buddha recommended his followers "try it before they buy it?" Since realizations are non-transferable; the only way to know, is to do.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    In my own experience, I can avoid personal attacks, avoid name-calling, avoid cursing, and just stick to the actual discussion with the nicest possible intentions regarding tone, but quite often the other person will still perceive my tone to be harsh and negative if my opinion happens to disagree with theirs.

    You bring up an interesting point. Before I retired as a school principal, I was sometimes accused of writing memos that "had a real tone" to them. So one day I had to put a memo out to the staff -- forgot what it was about now. I had my two assistant principals and a teacher leader read it, and I told them I had written with the intent of being merely informational...with no tone. They agreed it was just a basic statement of facts with absolutely no tone. Of course, even after the memo went out, several teachers complained about the tone of the memo. I think sometimes tone is perceived when one doesn't like the message.

  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    Perhaps the tone is actually a comment on a "lack of sensitivity" to real issues. Paying heed to those issues engenders mutual respect and trust. While there may have been no ill-wil on your part, that is likely where that was coming from.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    I agree. You know, I'm talking here about my own spiritual crisis -- not about this forum. The problem I'm having is discovering that there doesn't seem to be -- among practitioners -- a general consensus about what Buddhism is. There's a benefit to having a "big tent", but there doesn't seem to be any boundaries at all.

    @vinlyn Correct me if I am wrong, but is that not partly why the buddha recommended his followers "try it before they buy it?" Since realizations are non-transferable; the only way to know, is to do.

    But does that also mean that "anything goes"? If so, why have 5 Precepts (for example)?

    You know, back in university when I was working on my degree in educational administration, a very healthy exercise we were once required to do by one professor was to write our own formal "Statement Of Educational Philosophy". I suppose many just jotted something off rather quickly, but I took it very seriously and spent hours on it. Over the years, I'd take it out every so often and reread it and sometimes tweak it a bit. But, I never really altered the general gist of the document.

    And, there were times over the years when I would have to work on a committee to write some similar type of document. Those kinds of tasks would be quite a challenge, but ultimately we would compromise and come up with a document that everyone could agree with and live within. I doubt the members of this forum could do so...and I myself might very well be one of the problems.

  • tmottestmottes Veteran
    I read a study that found that if a person tried to make the tone of an email/online communication positive, that the recipient would more often than not, read it as neutral. They also found that if a person used a more neutral tone, the recipient would read it as negative.

    We just need to give each other a bit more credit. We aren't out to get each other; we are all just suffering humans here.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited August 2011

    Wow. My friend you are really confused:) fact1 and fact2 have nothing to do with me. I didn't even comment about your jhanas. I replied to DD on that thread and that's it. I didn't even know you said you achieved jhana:) you confused me probably with DD.
    My bad on fact1 and fact2. The discussion bled together. Yay for kleshas!

    I do feel that mere title of your ""Just Be" crap" thread was condescending and divisive, even while the content of your thread raised some important points, but I'm going to leave things where they are.

  • tmottestmottes Veteran
    edited August 2011

    I agree. You know, I'm talking here about my own spiritual crisis -- not about this forum. The problem I'm having is discovering that there doesn't seem to be -- among practitioners -- a general consensus about what Buddhism is. There's a benefit to having a "big tent", but there doesn't seem to be any boundaries at all.

    @vinlyn Correct me if I am wrong, but is that not partly why the buddha recommended his followers "try it before they buy it?" Since realizations are non-transferable; the only way to know, is to do.

    But does that also mean that "anything goes"? If so, why have 5 Precepts (for example)?

    You know, back in university when I was working on my degree in educational administration, a very healthy exercise we were once required to do by one professor was to write our own formal "Statement Of Educational Philosophy". I suppose many just jotted something off rather quickly, but I took it very seriously and spent hours on it. Over the years, I'd take it out every so often and reread it and sometimes tweak it a bit. But, I never really altered the general gist of the document.

    And, there were times over the years when I would have to work on a committee to write some similar type of document. Those kinds of tasks would be quite a challenge, but ultimately we would compromise and come up with a document that everyone could agree with and live within. I doubt the members of this forum could do so...and I myself might very well be one of the problems.
    I don't think that it means that anything goes, but it does mean that each person may come to insights through their own individual suffering. I have no direct realization of this, but I believe that there are as many paths as there are living creatures. That isn't to say there isn't a structure to the path, but just that we can only remember the path we have been on and see the path we are on currently. The problem with a forum is there is just a lot of mental masturbation going on here, myself highly included. Egos are powerful and subtle.
  • zen_worldzen_world Veteran


    And, there were times over the years when I would have to work on a committee to write some similar type of document. Those kinds of tasks would be quite a challenge, but ultimately we would compromise and come up with a document that everyone could agree with and live within. I doubt the members of this forum could do so...and I myself might very well be one of the problems.

    WRONG! You cannot comprimise the truth...truth is truth...if you take it and squeeze it twist it just to make it agreeable to others than you are creating a fabrication. Thats the point...

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I don't think that it means that anything goes, but it does mean that each person may come to insights through their own individual suffering. I have no direct realization of this, but I believe that there are as many paths as there are living creatures. That isn't to say there isn't a structure to the path, but just that we can only remember the path we have been on and see the path we are on currently. The problem with a forum is there is just a lot of mental masturbation going on here, myself highly included. Egos are powerful and subtle.

    :D First, thanks for making me laugh.

    The rest...well, I'll have to think more on it. Although we don't always agree, I like reading your posts...they make me think.



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