Putting things in nutshells and the third noble truth?

Jeffrey

One thing that I wish I could do sometimes is putting things in nutshells. What makes me think of this is a conversation with my therapist. He mentioned that they had reported on the news (NPR) the date which buddha had presented the theory of karma. A long widing conversation involving my tribulations with a dungeons and dragons group leader in which I thought about right speach ensued. An epic of working with others with different expectations on an internet environment of text. Ok thats just a bridge, my therapist mentioned that things come in fours in buddhism (I had mentioned lying, frivolous, divisive, harsh speach as four). We discussed the four noble truths.

So now I come to the meat of my interest. He understood the four noble truths as 1) we are suffering.. 2) we are suffering because we think we are suffering 3) he didn't know 4) he didn't know

This lead to confusion in myself because I didn't really know how to present this in a quite accessible way. I think I could have improved by saying suffering 1 craving 2... I just made a mistake and forgot that.... But how to explain 3?? Three is the hard one to explain I think. Not much is said about three which I found in the bookclub book (general banter) Turning the Wheel of Truth which was about Buddha's first sermon in deer park.

My question is what does this explanation make you think of? Do you have any insights, just be relaxed what do you think? The formal question as a vehicle of discussion is how we go about explaining things in nutshells in particular how do we present the third noble truth.

It goes without saying that I am experiencing a lack of clarity currently and am in a searching mode of being.

tmottes

Stress, its origination, its cessation, and the path to its cessation?

Jeffrey

Does the third noble truth present a rationale for why it is possible to overcome stress?

tmottes

"One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

— UD 8.4

tmottes

"One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when standing (still), stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object), established on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & development. Should consciousness, when standing (still), stand attached to feeling... to perception... to fabrications... it would exhibit growth, increase, & development. Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase or a development of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, then owing to the abandoning of passion, the support is cut off, and consciousness is unestablished. Consciousness, thus unestablished, undeveloped, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it stays firm. Owing to its staying firm, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within himself. He discerns that, 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

— SN 22.53

tmottes

To answer your question in a more succinct manner, because it has no foundation. Of course, we must realize that lack of foundation for ourselves.

Jeffrey

What does the pronoun it refer to in 'it' has no foundation?

tmottes

Stress.

Dakini

3: There is a way out of suffering. 4: The Eightfold Path (and the Dharma) is the way out. It's important to realize there is a way out of "suffering" (also translated as: dissatisfaction, stress, etc.). There is light at the end of the tunnel, there is hope. Put another way: 1) We're all living in a tunnel 2) The tunnel is of our own creation 3) There is a way out 4) The Dharma is the way out; we can get ourselves out, just as we got ourselves in.

Things tend to come in fours in some cultures, because nature is full of fours: four seasons, four directions (though some cultures have 6 or even 7 directions), 4-legged animals. 3 is also popular (the Holy Trinity, themes of three brothers or three tests or trials in some Indo-European folklore, etc.), and its multiple, 9 (3 x 3).

fltnr1

Thank you for that point,I needed to rehear it.I still my need to hear it again many,many more times,but for now,THANKS!

Mountains

because nature is full of fours: four seasons...

Clearly you've never lived in Florida

Dakini

Clearly you've never lived in Florida

lol! But I have lived in CA! But you're right; many countries experience only 2 seasons: wet and dry. I wonder what the numerological implications are for cultures in those regions. hmm... :scratch:

vinlyn

Clearly you've never lived in Florida

lol! But I have lived in CA! But you're right; many countries experience only 2 seasons: wet and dry. I wonder what the numerological implications are for cultures in those regions. hmm... :scratch:

Or in Thailand where I lived for a while...3 seasons...hot, hotter, and hottest.

DhammaDhatu

1. the experience of suffering is this - defined; described

2. the cause of suffering is this - defined; described

3. the experience free from suffering is this - defined; described

4. the way/method to experience freedom from suffering is this - defined; described



1. the disease (diagnosis)
2. the cause of the disease (etiology)
3. the freedom from disease (wellness)
4. the medicine to bring freedom from the disease (treatment)

Prometheus

I see the third truth as being, in a nutshell, the goal of transcending 'I' in order to cease 'I'-based craving. That leads to the fourth truth which is the path to transcending 'I'. That's my understanding, anyway.

Cloud

The third truth simply states that because craving is the cause of suffering (the first and second truths), it naturally follows that the end of craving means the end of suffering.

They're all connected truths, we can't just take one out of the equation. It can only be explained in terms of the equation.

(1) The problem at hand is our suffering, (2) which is caused by our craving... (3) that suffering ends when the craving ends, (4) and so the Buddha designed a Path to end our craving (and thus our suffering).

Sickness, Cause, Cure, Ingredients for the Cure

DhammaDhatu

seeker242

So now I come to the meat of my interest. He understood the four noble truths as 1) we are suffering.. 2) we are suffering because we think we are suffering 3) he didn't know 4) he didn't know

This lead to confusion in myself because I didn't really know how to present this in a quite accessible way. I think I could have improved by saying suffering 1 craving 2... I just made a mistake and forgot that.... But how to explain 3?? Three is the hard one to explain I think. Not much is said about three which I found in the bookclub book (general banter) Turning the Wheel of Truth which was about Buddha's first sermon in deer park.

My question is what does this explanation make you think of? Do you have any insights, just be relaxed what do you think? The formal question as a vehicle of discussion is how we go about explaining things in nutshells in particular how do we present the third noble truth.

It goes without saying that I am experiencing a lack of clarity currently and am in a searching mode of being.

I don't think it's possible to present the 3rd truth in a way that is "accessible" because many people simply can not believe the the end of suffering is possible to begin with. Their own perceptions and their own mind habits make it "inaccessible". Even practicing Buddhists say things like "I will always suffer"... What makes the 3rd "accessible" is an understanding of the 1st, 2nd, and the practice of the 4th IMO. If you don't know what suffering is and it's cause, then it's impossible to know that it can end. However, it's possible to believe that it can end by having faith. Which is why the Buddha said things like "Faith is seed, the entrance, the initiator, the ticket, the beginning. Understanding is the highest, the goal, the diamond-cutter, the end. Both are Floods of Advantage, Fabulous Fruits, Leading to Happiness!" but you can't make someone have faith.

genkaku

I take the Four Noble Truths as: There is suffering; there is a cause of suffering; there is an end to suffering; and there is a way to end suffering.

I take the Four Noble Truths as being observations about life. Observations are those things that others are free to accept or reject. The Eightfold Path I take to be the suggestions made about what to do about suffering ... also open to rejection or acceptance.

Most people, by whatever definition, may feel some kinship with propositions 1 and 2. They can see the uncertainties in their own lives and they can follow the logical progression when someone describes the "cause." But number 3 is a crapshoot: If you don't KNOW that there is an end to suffering, you may be forgiven for being dubious. Number 3 represents a matter of choice, a matter of faith and a matter (for the moment) of belief. For the moment, it may be a chosen goal -- not better, not worse ... just a choice. "I choose to believe there is an end to suffering because ... well, because I sure as hell hope there is." And based on that chosen hope and chosen goal, a willingness arises to implement The Eightfold Path -- the way to end suffering.

I see nothing wrong about making a choice similar to the one implied in "there is an end to suffering." What gums up the works is the desire to explain it to others and long for their agreement. It's just a choice, much as I might extol chocolate or disparage anchovies. If you want to believe something, go ahead and believe it. If you don't, don't. But try not to base your firmness of belief in the words or actions or reactions of others.

Jeffrey

These are excellent! Anyone else have a reaction or idea?

tmottes

Perhaps spending time around an accomplished teacher is good evidence of the 3rd NT.

driedleaf

The four noble truths as I understand it is:

1. There is suffering.
2. The cause of suffering is "cravings"(tanha).
3. The end of cravings is the cause that leads to the end of suffering.
4. The Eightfold Path is the way leading to end of cravings and end of suffering.

"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress:[1] Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

The reason you do not hear about the 3rd too often is because it is to be experienced.

Svâkkhato Bhagavatâ Dhammo Sanditthiko Akâliko Ehi-passiko Opanâyiko Paccattam
veditabbo viññuhiti.
(The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and how; not delayed in time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html
http://www.buddhanet.net/pali_chant.htm

Shutoku

Yeah I tend to think of it this way. The second NT shows why there is suffering. Since the buddha identified the cause of the problem, there can be a cure.
If we couldn't identify the cause of the problem, we cannot really stop the problem.
So:
there is a problem - Suffering
there is a cause of the problem - clinging
Knowing the cause, there is a cure
The cure is the 8FP.

On the 1st NT, one of the meanings of Dukka, is a wheel with the axle off centre. Imagine riding in a car where all the wheels were this way.....it would be a bumpy ride!

Jeffrey

I am grateful for the comments here, all of them. Great job guys and gals!