Eternalism and Nihilism - Help with meaning and understanding!

Tosh

Hi all,

I'm struggling with understanding a question on my course and I'm unsure of what Eternalism and Nihilism mean with regards to Buddhism.

Eternalism (I think) means that we have something like a 'soul' which lasts for all eternity, and Nihilism means there is no meaning to life (I thought). But that doesn't seem to fit with my question which is:

"Explain how the Middle Way is seen as the knife edge between eternalism and nihilism."

From my course book it says the following (but doesn't help me understand how to explain how it's the Middle Way):

"It is said that the Madhyamaka school's philosophical view is right on the brink of nihilism. Tibetan masters often use the term "standing on the edge of a sword." The masters tell us that realizing ultimate truth is not like having been in a dark room that immediately becomes bright when we switch on the light. The ignorance I possess within me won't disappear instantly, in just a moment. This ignorance will be removed through the process of gradually substituting other ignorant minds... (etc)"

Now, this paragraph doesn't seem to answer the question I've been asked to explain.

Any help to my understanding would be gratefully received. It's an interesting topic I'd like to have a better understanding of.

taiyaki

Emptiness is the lack of something. It is right in the middle between eternalism and nihilism! It is very subtle so don't miss it.

Tosh

So eternalism is realism, like the Vaibashikas and the Suatrantikas who assert that phenomena do have an inherent existence - and unlike the Chittamatrins (Mind only) who assert that objects have no inherent existence (nihilism?).

Right?

So, the Madyamakas are in the middle with Emptiness with things not existing because they're compounded and impermanent?

I think I understand. Do I? LOL

taiyaki

Thing exist but as changing processes which are dependent on causes and conditions. Something like that. Basically nothing is graspable!

zenff

"It is said that the Madhyamaka School’s philosophical view is right on the brink of nihilism. Tibetan masters often use the term "standing on the edge of a sword."

This was explained to me in the Tibetan words “me gak” (if I remember correctly).
That should be translated as something like “non-confirming denial”.
The idea is that usually the denial of A implies the conformation of the opposite not-A.
Standing on the edge of the sword goes against that common understanding.
They deny the intrinsic existence of all phenomena but they say this denial does not positively confirm that there is nothing; that it does not manifest nihilism.

Maybe in zen-jargon the same thing is expressed in statements like:” When you say this is a stick I will take it away from you. When you say this is not a stick I will give it to you.”

And no, that's not graspable indeed.

taiyaki

It is because all things are empty that all things are possible. Thus i can eat mac and cheese!

thickpaper

Hi @Tosh

This is something I think is often mistaken, and I may well be mistaken on this - as I often am.

But my take on your question is:

Nihilism is the believe that nothing has any value for any reason.
Mysticism (Eternalism is Mysticism "lite") is the believe that things can have value, even without any reason.


The Buddha realised that there is this dichotomy (it was around for millenia before him) between Nihilism and Mysticism and that both lead to suffering in different but related ways. More importantly he realised that the kind of pracicte that needs to lead towards true happiness cannot get caught up in the mumbo and the jumbo of mysticism or the void of pointlessness that underpins nihilism.

His solution was to cut a path between the two extreme views.

Its important to see that this path is not the path of practice that is the eightfold path, that is specific to dharma. The middle path is more like a direction and location rather than the path itself.

Imagine you are at "Suffering" and you want to get to "Happiness". The only way you can go the Buddha found was between the two mountains of Nihilism and Mysticism. That is the middle path.

He then added to this by showing that the best way to walk between these two extreams was the Eightfold Way. (I know many hard core atheist materialists who follow the middle path between the extreams of nihilsim and mysticism but do not go the way of the eightfold path.)

I hope that was some help. Incidentally, some say that the extreams the middle path goes through are things other than mysticism and nihiism, eg Self-mortification and nihilsism - these takes dont make any sense to me rationally or dharmically - but maybe you can make sense of them.

namaste

tmottes

@taiyaki Would you say that nothing exists outside of its context?

taiyaki

What is, is what is. To call it nothing would make it into something. To call it anything is a mistake. What is left if we do not project? Just this. Just verbs with no subjects or objects. But yes all things exist relationally!

Tosh

Thanks guys/gals; you've all helped my understanding a little better.

Very grateful here. Cheers.

tmottes

@taiyaki thanks for both the buddhist and pragmatic response .

genkaku

One Zen teacher, when asked to explain the middle way, said: "It means the extremes." Realizing/actualizing such an observation requires practice. Intellect and emotion are of no use.

DhammaDhatu

Both eternalism & nihilism are views that revolve around 'self', which as "I will exist forever" and "I will cease after death"

The Buddha said the nihilists had views that were closest to the Buddha-Dhamma

discussion & quotes here:

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/showthread.php?1225-Eternalism-amp-Nihilism-What-exactly-do-the-suttas-say

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=9288&p=143373&hilit=nihilist#p143373

regards

andyrobyn

I agree with DD both are self views and the middle way is about something different.

Cloud

@Tosh
To put it simply, eternalism is the belief that you exist permanently and always as the consciousness (or self/soul) you envision is your true self.
Nihilism is that nothing you do matters, and anything you were ceases at death.

The middle ground is that "you" are part of an ever-changing reality. What you are has always existed before you were born, and will continue on to change as conditions dictate. The actions taken in this life do have consequences both now and how they shape the future. As awareness has arisen in the mind-body that you consider to be "yours", so too will awareness arise again in the future from that same "substance" that is now temporarily you (a mind-body with sense-doors that can make contact with transient form).

As the world we inherit is the world our ancestor's created for us, so too will the world our descendants inherit in the future be the one we create. It's not permanent, it's not unchanging, but it's a dynamic reality of awareness and experience. It's not difficult to envision that our ancestors found themselves in the same situation; we are the rebirth of their actions, and our descendants the rebirth of ours. The awareness/consciousness of life arises on its own through the right conditions, but once arisen it clings to life. We are the end and the beginning of human awareness.