The 'magic stuff' in Buddhism...

Tosh

I was struggling to understand a concept, so I referred to another non-course book I'd been lent, and I was like "Wow, this is really well explained rational, analytical stuff!", and it is; it was nicely laid out - a commentary on texts from Je Tsong Khappa (and maybe some other ones), so I turned to the introduction to get a 'flavour' of the author, and the author was writing about a monk called Chandrakirti - about all his magical powers - how he could milk a picture of cow drawn on a wall, for example. This surprised me a little.

I guess I find it hard to reconcile what seems to be a rigorously intellectual and analytical philosophy/religion, one that I'm just really starting to learn about, can on the other hand include elements of magic in it?

I understand that I can just take what is useful, and disregard the rest, but what's your thoughts on this? And if anyone believes in the supernatural powers, can you explain why?

This isn't a criticism, I'm honestly just interested.

zidangus

Check it out

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/D - Chinese Mahayana Buddhism/Authors/Hsing Yun/On Magic and the Supernatural/The Buddhist Perspective on Magic and Supernatural.htm

if you believe it or not is up to you, at the end of the day i say believe what you feel is logical and your comfortable with.

zidangus

'According to scriptures, even though two thousand years have passed, several of the Buddha’s disciples still live amongst us. Mahakyasyapa, one of the Buddha’s top disciples, is guarding the Buddha’s robe and in deep meditation inside Kukkutapada mountain. He is waiting for the birth of Maitreya Buddha fifty-six trillion and seven hundred million years from now. He will present the robe, which represents the correct Dharma of the previous Buddha, to Maitreya Buddha for the continuous spread of the teachings. Decades ago, there was a story about a French explorer who actually met Mahakasyapa in India.

Venerable Pindolabharadvaja is another of Buddha’s disciples still living amongst us. He is one of the sixteen disciples named in The Amitabha Sutra. He has attained the holy fruit of Arhat. Why would an arhat remain here and not enter Nirvana? It is because once he showed off his magic in front of the faithful. Once when in a jubilant mood, he said to the faithful, "Do you think flying in the sky is magical? I will show you some spectacular acts."

He then jumped up into the sky and performed many miraculous acts. The faithful were all impressed and praised him without ceasing. The Buddha was very displeased upon learning of this incident. He asked the Venerable to come forth and admonished him, "My teaching uses morality to change others and compassion to save living beings. It does not use magic to impress and confuse people. You have misused magic today. As punishment, I order you to stay in this world, to work for more merits and to repent for this misbehavior before entering Nirvana."

Because the Venerable misused magic, he still has to live and suffer amongst us. Magic cannot increase our virtue or eradicate defilements. Careless use will only build more obstacles to emancipation. It is obvious that magic is not the solution for cycles of rebirth. Only practicing virtue is the sure and steady approach toward the Buddha Path.'





interesting, I have never heard/read this before, where is DD ? I need a sutra reference :scratch:

Cloud

Begin with what you know is true, then move on to what you can test to see whether it is true or false.

A lot of things have no real answers and are a matter of belief or disbelief. It's not required that you believe any of them in order to walk the Noble Eightfold Path.

Tosh

Thanks, guys, And I've just thought on; at one class I attended a while back the Monk, while talking about meditation, said to "ask the Buddha for help, and he will!"

That struck me as strange, but I did and still do during each of my formal meditations; it seems to be working, though it may help purely at a psychological level - I don't know?

Do you think that for some people, there's value in this magic stuff, a bit like what I do with asking Buddha for help with my meditation?

SattvaPaul

The magic stuff in Buddhism bothers me too.. And my thinking tends to be "all or nothing", so once I start to dig deeper, the whole thing unravels and I lose faith in the whole of Buddhism.

SattvaPaul

Thanks, guys, And I've just thought on; at one class I attended a while back the Monk, while talking about meditation, said to "ask the Buddha for help, and he will!"

That struck me as strange, but I did and still do during each of my formal meditations; it seems to be working, though it may help purely at a psychological level - I don't know?

Do you think that for some people, there's value in this magic stuff, a bit like what I do with asking Buddha for help with my meditation?

This doesn't seem like magic to me at all. If you have faith that the Buddha is there and can help you, and you ask for help, he will. Simple as that.

caz

I was struggling to understand a concept, so I referred to another non-course book I'd been lent, and I was like "Wow, this is really well explained rational, analytical stuff!", and it is; it was nicely laid out - a commentary on texts from Je Tsong Khappa (and maybe some other ones), so I turned to the introduction to get a 'flavour' of the author, and the author was writing about a monk called Chandrakirti - about all his magical powers - how he could milk a picture of cow drawn on a wall, for example. This surprised me a little.

I guess I find it hard to reconcile what seems to be a rigorously intellectual and analytical philosophy/religion, one that I'm just really starting to learn about, can on the other hand include elements of magic in it?

I understand that I can just take what is useful, and disregard the rest, but what's your thoughts on this? And if anyone believes in the supernatural powers, can you explain why?

This isn't a criticism, I'm honestly just interested.

Once you begin to understand Emptiness you can see how one can develop miracle powers or siddhis, Imagine appearance as being in reality no more real then the objects in a dream, When the dreamer has control over his dream he can will all sorts of things to manifest that would seem conventionally impossible to be. The same with this reality when one acheives profound levels of concentration one can develop siddhis...When one recognises that this appearance is not dissimilar from that of the dream world the man who can milk a picture of a cow in the dream can do likewise in this wakeing appearance as well.

caz

Thanks, guys, And I've just thought on; at one class I attended a while back the Monk, while talking about meditation, said to "ask the Buddha for help, and he will!"

That struck me as strange, but I did and still do during each of my formal meditations; it seems to be working, though it may help purely at a psychological level - I don't know?

Do you think that for some people, there's value in this magic stuff, a bit like what I do with asking Buddha for help with my meditation?

Buddha's are beings to, They where once like us their job is to bestow blessings in the mind stream. It doesnt seem so strange when you get a deeper understanding of emptiness Tosh.

Tosh

The magic stuff in Buddhism bothers me too..

No, I'm not bothered by the magic; I've read a little of the history of Buddhism and understand how previous religions can colour and influence Buddhism. In Christianity 'we' have Christmas trees at Christmas, for example, and those have nothing to do with Christ, but everything to do with earlier pagan beliefs. The yule log and mistletoe are also both pagan.

This doesn't seem like magic to me at all. If you have faith that the Buddha is there and can help you, and you ask for help, he will. Simple as that.

Well, the Buddha died 2500 years ago; I've never asked dead men for help before; it is kind of 'magical', but it feels right, so I do it.

Tosh

@Caz, thanks.

I'll try to keep an open mind!

andyrobyn

Thanks, guys, And I've just thought on; at one class I attended a while back the Monk, while talking about meditation, said to "ask the Buddha for help, and he will!"

That struck me as strange, but I did and still do during each of my formal meditations; it seems to be working, though it may help purely at a psychological level - I don't know?

Do you think that for some people, there's value in this magic stuff, a bit like what I do with asking Buddha for help with my meditation?

I think that the meaning behind the statement was that confirmed confidence and maintaining dilligence towards putting into practice the Teachings will get results.

SattvaPaul

It depends on what you understand by "Buddha". According to Mahayana, the Buddha constantly manifests for the benefit of sentient beings.

zidangus

I have not experienced meditative states in which I felt that I could preform any type of the things that are cited in the article I linked. Therefore without this direct experience I cannot verify if this 'magic' is true or not. But one thing I do know, and I think it states this in the article, I don't believe you need this 'magic' if it exists to follow and progress on the Buddhist path, so in this sense its irrelevant to my practice or my Buddhist beliefs such as the four noble truths that we all have experienced and verified first hand one way or another at some point in our life.

andyrobyn

It depends on what you understand by "Buddha". According to Mahayana, the Buddha constantly manifests for the benefit of sentient beings.

We still have to put in the action.

SattvaPaul

Yes, we do.

caz

Thanks, guys, And I've just thought on; at one class I attended a while back the Monk, while talking about meditation, said to "ask the Buddha for help, and he will!"

That struck me as strange, but I did and still do during each of my formal meditations; it seems to be working, though it may help purely at a psychological level - I don't know?

Do you think that for some people, there's value in this magic stuff, a bit like what I do with asking Buddha for help with my meditation?

Buddha's are beings to, They where once like us their job is to bestow blessings in the mind stream. It doesnt seem so strange when you get a deeper understanding of emptiness Tosh.

caz

When your having investigated phenomena and having found that they lack any substancial self be satisfied that all manner of phenomena are just appearance no matter how magical they may seem. It goes to show there is still alot of self grasping in the mind if one clings to this world as true.

Prometheus

The saving grace of Buddhism, in my view, is the emphasis on testing all claims for yourself. Buddhism, therefore, has this in-built mechanism for sifting out bulls%#$. I wouldn't want to say that those who de-emphasise testability in favor of blind faith in magic 'aren't really Buddhists', but I would say that they have the effect of turning Buddhism into 'just another religion'.

caz

Considering that many of these people who developed siddhis spent a hell of a lot of time in retreat and Buddha recorded such acheivements and many others sifting out the bullshit as you say will first have to start in the mind.

Dakini

You can pass on the mythology and practice the basics: the 4 Nobles, the 8Fold Path, the precepts, mindfulness, compassion, emptiness. You can't go wrong there.

caz

You can pass on the mythology and practice the basics: the 4 Nobles, the 8Fold Path, the precepts, mindfulness, compassion, emptiness. You can't go wrong there.

Well if your practising and understanding these then there is no reason why following the logic of the teachings the true words of Buddha accomplishments that any doubt should arise as to the authenticity of such things ?

Dakini

? Caz, your sentence-question doesn't make sense, I don't know what you're asking. I was just giving our standard advice to a newbie. Some people love Buddhism precisely for its logic. Some like ritual and myth. Buddhism has something for everyone. To each his/her own.

caz

Yup im not making much sense this evening

Dakini

Well, truth be told, although I like the logic of Buddhism, I think oracles are very cool.

LightOfFlower

I've been through something you can call "magical". But I ended up "sick" from it. Someone that was a dragon and so loving but something went wrong. I don't know why I ended up the way I did. But I do believe that there was a sort of "magic" because he did stuff I didn't know was actually possible, but now I do. However, there must be a better word for this because "magic" means illusion.

caz

Well, truth be told, although I like the logic of Buddhism, I think oracles are very cool.

They are considering the crowns they wear are enough to snap a mans neck

Daozen

Practice mindfulness, develop loving compassion for all beings, and learn to see the simplest of truth - impermanence - in everything. This is all Buddhism is.

Do these things, and 'magic' happens, but not the kind you are talking about.

Cinorjer

I don't believe in magic or the supernatural.

But, I'm surrounded by miracles.

You can believe in magic powers and be Buddhist, you can believe in ghosts and demons and still be Buddhist, or you can believe in the universal ability of the human mind to fool itself into seeing what isn't there and be Buddhist.

Someone who deliberately pretends to magical powers to fool people is living a lie, and that is not Buddhism. Beyond that, people of all religions and cultures have believed in all sorts of magical things. No big deal. As long as you don't make the mistake of believing the magical powers are the goal of Buddhist practice.

Just my opinion.

seeker242

And if anyone believes in the supernatural powers, can you explain why?

It depends on what "supernatural" means. Cambridge online dictionary defines it as: "things that cannot be explained by science". To think that everything can be explained by science ignores the possibility of unknowns that science has yet to discover. There was a time when humans thought that fire was quite supernatural, until science learned about "combustion", then fire was no longer supernatural but just natural. I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that there are still some natural things that are still in this unknown state, which by definition makes them "supernatural", just like fire was a long time ago.

Dakini

YES, Seeker! :clap: There was a time when people thought electricity was magic. It's surprising how much science already knows, but isn't telling us, not in science courses, anyway. Like the article someone posted a couple of months ago about consciousness being a field that pervades the universe. This could explain things like distance healing. But you don't hear about the universal consciousness field in high school or even college science classes. I read an article about it in a science magazine years ago, and it turns out they've known about it since the 1930's. The so-called supernatural or paranormal is just a scientific discovery waiting to happen. My motto.

jj5

Wow, this is a great thread!

aura

Magic? What magic?
Human beings are pan dimensional, having existence on more than the typical 4 dimensions (3 dimensional space + time as #4).

On the astral plane, thoughts are things, that's all.
That's not magic, that's physics on the plane where thoughts become things as mind manipulates matter.
As for consciousness of more than 4 dimensions?
That's not magic either, that's a gift of meditation.

hardcorebruinsfan

The saving grace of Buddhism, in my view, is the emphasis on testing all claims for yourself. Buddhism, therefore, has this in-built mechanism for sifting out bulls%#$. I wouldn't want to say that those who de-emphasise testability in favor of blind faith in magic 'aren't really Buddhists', but I would say that they have the effect of turning Buddhism into 'just another religion'.

Great point. I don't think Buddhism would appeal to me very much if it weren't for this. If there's something that doesn't work for me or that I disagree with, I don't necessarily have to accept those teachings

Dakini

Wow, this is a great thread!

Stick around, jj5--every couple of months or so there's a thread on "magic", or some form of the paranormal. Those are my favorites. Welcome, btw.