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The Internet is Not Your Teacher

DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
edited September 2011 in Buddhism Today
This week’s episode comes from the recent Buddhist Geeks conference where Ethan Nichtern, a Buddhist teacher in the Shambhala tradition, speaks about ways in which the internet falls as a an aid in dharma. He uses the Tibetan teaching on co-emergence to frame the simultaneous benefits and harms of the internet, while also speaking about the limitations of a DIY (Do it Yourself) approach, especially when not being open to genuine human contact, with your community or with a teacher. And he argues that in order to go beyond a surface level dharma, which is mostly what he sees online, that one has to stay with things long enough to penetrate their true meaning. He suggests ways that we might do this and presents a very strong argument for not virtualizing Buddhist practice.

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2011/09/bg-230-the-internet-is-not-your-teacher/
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Comments

  • zenffzenff Veteran
    Maybe the internet is not your teacher, but it opens many doors and it makes us – students - less dependent on the person of the teacher.
    That is a good thing, because teachers are human beings and they can have some blind spots of their own.

    The internet opens doors. We get all the information; not just the teacher's pick.
    Cults grow in isolation. Separation by either physical or mental walls is dangerous.

    So I think we should really appreciate the internet, and teachers should not discourage their students exploring it.
    imho
  • SpacelessSpaceless
    edited September 2011
    If you enter a profound meditation where those that might appear before you is real like human contact but virtual like dream. Especially DIY where teacher is crucial. In a monastery where buddhist monastics living together are very helpful amongst themselves as a group.
  • DazzleDazzle
    Some Tibetan Buddhist groups can discourage seeking information and teachings from other traditions (or even from other schools within the same tradition) and rely heavily on the words of their gurus and past gurus, so its natural that they might discourage students from the internet.

    I agree that its definately beneficial to investigate offline groups and teachers - but I owe a lot to the internet myself. When I began to have doubts about staying with the tradition I was with, I was able to successfully investigate the teachings of another tradition online before continuing with them offline. So the internet can be a valuable resource together with offline contact.
  • thickpaperthickpaper Veteran
    I think most Buddhists would agree that ultimately if you cant teach yourself the Path then you wont get too far down the Path. Teachers, imo, should be more like pointers..."Go that way"...
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    The 20th century American humorist Will Rogers once observed, "There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." All of us are probably some mixture of all of these men, but Buddhism at its best is for people who have peed on the electric fence of this life.

    How we cope with the jolt varies. Some think Facebook or Internet bulletin boards amount to a human life. Some love temples and texts. Some find other ways of expressing a desire for peace and happiness. Whatever the way, it is always quite serious ... after all, it concerns "me" and I take myself seriously. There is no saying one way is entirely useful or entirely useless ... it all depends on a singular, in-the-mirror determination, the willingness to do and to investigate and to get to the heart of things. It requires the willingness to acknowledge our mistakes and keep on keepin' on.

    Can individuals get to the heart of Buddhism on their own? Maybe. Maybe not. Can they acknowledge that saying "Yes I can" sometimes amounts to little more than a cover for "No I can't." Can they, to borrow from the Japanese, "fall down seven times, get up eight?"

    The Internet, like books, is mostly safe-sex Buddhism, a beckoning aspect that secretly asks the question, "Beckoning to what?" And the for-what question, if allowed to be nourished, means ... peeing on the electric fence over and over again.

    Just noodling.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    Find me a teacher in Roanoke, Virginia and I'm all ears.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Find me a teacher in Roanoke, Virginia and I'm all ears.
    http://www.meditationinvirginia.org

    Dharmapala Kadampa Buddhist Center
    Address: 1917 Franklin Road, Suite 113
    Roanoke, VA 24014

    http://www.stonemountainzendo.org
    Stone Mountain Zendo
    The zendo meets in the basement of Christ Episcopal Church (rear of building and down stairs), at the corner of Franklin Road and Washington Avenue, SW, in Roanoke, VA.

    :)
  • DazzleDazzle
    Find me a teacher in Roanoke, Virginia and I'm all ears.
    Maybe try the Buddhanet worldwide search facility ?
    .

  • jupitermadcatjupitermadcat
    I guess if you look hard enough you will find.. :aol:
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Find me a teacher in Roanoke, Virginia and I'm all ears.
    http://www.meditationinvirginia.org/

    Ah, someone beat me to it.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited September 2011
    It depends on how you use the internet. One can't make blanket statements about the internet failing as an aid. That's like saying that all the hundreds of dharma books that Shambhala and others produce every year are a waste of paper and the money it takes to produce them. The internet is a tool, like those books. Look at all the sutras and commentaries on them that are available on the internet--that's very useful for getting a good grounding in the sutras. (TB doesn't each the Pali sutras. Rarely does it even teach the Mahayana sutras, in my experience.) The internet can be a wonderful resource. I think the question is more about becoming overly-dependent on the internet for guidance, though I haven't seen any internet resources that offer guidance, other than programs where teachers offer courses to students and are in direct contact with students to answer questions. That can be very useful for people who live in isolated areas, and have no local "live" teachers to work with.

    Maybe Nichtern has been looking at the wrong resources on the internet, to get the impression it's mostly superficial stuff. The question is more complex than he makes it out to be.
  • zidanguszidangus Veteran
    I guess it all comes down to the source of the teachings, be it on the internet, in a book or in person. For instance there are many Buddhist websites on the internet which have contributions from some of the most respected Buddhist practitioners in the world.
  • vixthenomadvixthenomad
    I note with interest that Mr Nichtern is not above using the Internet in order to beat his own Buddhist drum, however. Why should I believe that he is any less 'surface level' than any other online Buddhist?
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    Find me a teacher in Roanoke, Virginia and I'm all ears.
    http://www.meditationinvirginia.org

    Dharmapala Kadampa Buddhist Center
    Address: 1917 Franklin Road, Suite 113
    Roanoke, VA 24014

    http://www.stonemountainzendo.org
    Stone Mountain Zendo
    The zendo meets in the basement of Christ Episcopal Church (rear of building and down stairs), at the corner of Franklin Road and Washington Avenue, SW, in Roanoke, VA.

    :)
    Been to both, and neither is (**at all**) my cup of tea. Both ends of the spectrum I'm afraid.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I note with interest that Mr Nichtern is not above using the Internet in order to beat his own Buddhist drum, however. Why should I believe that he is any less 'surface level' than any other online Buddhist?
    vix, you're hilarious! lol ! I'm becoming a real fan of your posts, lately. ^_^
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Find me a teacher in Roanoke, Virginia and I'm all ears.
    http://www.meditationinvirginia.org

    Dharmapala Kadampa Buddhist Center
    Address: 1917 Franklin Road, Suite 113
    Roanoke, VA 24014

    http://www.stonemountainzendo.org
    Stone Mountain Zendo
    The zendo meets in the basement of Christ Episcopal Church (rear of building and down stairs), at the corner of Franklin Road and Washington Avenue, SW, in Roanoke, VA.

    :)
    Been to both, and neither is (**at all**) my cup of tea. Both ends of the spectrum I'm afraid.

    This was in interesting section from another thread I thought:

    Student: I think that’s because everyone is different. Just finding a teacher isn’t the be-all end-all, not for me. You have to find the right teacher.

    Zen Master: No, you do not have to find the right teacher. You sound like some young kid looking for “The One,” the perfect mate, the person that I’m going to be with the rest of my life.

    Student: So it doesn’t matter who it is or what they have done…

    Zen Master: Just go there and practice. That’s all. If you think, well, I’m going to find “The One” – you know, that’s a myth. That never happens to young guy. Aw, I’m looking, looking for “The One.” I’m looking for my “soul mate.”

    http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/12050/zen-master-if-you-want-to-practice-zen-find-a-teacher.-stop-making-excuses.-a-student-that-cannot#Item_11
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    One doesn't have to find "the One". One does need to find one who at least practices what he preaches, and holds to the precepts.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited September 2011
    I think you run into this problem of extremes when undertaking this dualistic notion. Which is better? X or Y?

    The article has a point that the purpose of buddhism is to go deeper and deeper. The more and more you question, the deeper and deeper you go. What the teacher can do is recognize which questions are glimpses into the dharma. And thus provide direction and answer your dharma questions.

    For example if you asked 85% of the questions occuring on a forum to a teacher, they probably would not have enough time to provide an answer. Thus the teacher does not water the rocky ground of (those that are) unfruitful questions and instead provides what is helpful. If a teacher has more time on earth they could answer each of your questions.

    This is what is meant by forming dharma connections. As we are drawn into the mandala of awakening beings we receive the necessary connections (karma or merit) to provide us with directions.

    But this is all dualistic. Just practice and if you find a teacher that is your karma. If you DIY then that is your karma.
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    One doesn't have to find "the One". One does need to find one who at least practices what he preaches, and holds to the precepts.
    It took me quite a while ( 15 years or so ) to find my current teacher - I had high expectations in one sense and also was able to accept the different teachers who I came across and was accepting of the need to move on. Whilst the internet is a great source of written information, again you have to be very discerning.

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2011
    One doesn't have to find "the One". One does need to find one who at least practices what he preaches, and holds to the precepts.

    True, but then there are plenty of people where this is not the problem. For these people, the problem is their seemingly incessant desire to avoid all rituals and traditions. Those are the kind of people that have a really hard time finding a a teacher or even a group to sit with. There comes a point when a person simply has too many preferences, that finding a teacher or group is simply impossible.
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited September 2011
    One doesn't have to find "the One". One does need to find one who at least practices what he preaches, and holds to the precepts.

    True, but then there are plenty of people where this is not the problem. For these people, the problem is their seemingly incessant desire to avoid all rituals and traditions. Those are the kind of people that have a really hard time finding a a teacher or even a group to sit with. There comes a point when a person simply has too many preferences, that finding a teacher or group is simply impossible.
    Surely one shouldn't be looking outwards to what other people seem to be avoiding or what preferences they appear to have - but should be seeking what seems right for one's own study and practice.

  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited September 2011
    ...the Shambhala tradition...
    he sounds threatened

    based on the history of the Shambhala tradition, the internet is at least a far safer place

    unlike the Shambhala, at least the internet gurus will not infect the community with AIDS

    :(
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    Hi DD,

    not by their online contact anyway. Also, it is probably worth saying that obviously such spread of infection would involve " the community's " unskillful actions as well.
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited September 2011


    not by their online contact anyway. Also, it is probably worth saying that obviously such spread of infection would involve " the community's " unskillful actions as well.
    That certainly doesn't excuse the actions of Trungpa's 'Regent' Osel Tenzin who should have known better than to be having sex with people who were meant to be his students.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ösel_Tendzin

    .
  • EpicurusEpicurus
    I think most Buddhists would agree that ultimately if you cant teach yourself the Path then you wont get too far down the Path.
    This is ludicrous. Unless by path you mean Buddhism itself. But enlightenment?

    Do people forget the Buddha achieved enlightenment on his own? Every wise person in history knowns that spiritual development is something you do essentially on your own. It's about exploring yourself. It's a personal choice.
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran


    not by their online contact anyway. Also, it is probably worth saying that obviously such spread of infection would involve " the community's " unskillful actions as well.

    That certainly doesn't excuse the actions of Trungpa's 'Regent' Osel Tenzin who should have known better than to be having sex with people who were meant to be his students.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ösel_Tendzin

    .
    Fortunately " our " progress is not dependant on having to excuse or pass judgement on anyone else's actions, or what those actions were based on. My point was that " the community " is at risk due to actions of the individual members and spread of infection requires each individual to maintain their level of responsibiltiy and not abdicate it - certainly not to a teacher.

  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    Sorry, having problems with slow internet where I am today and by the time I could read my post, the edit function was not available. I mean to say as individuals we need to maintain our personal responsibility.
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited September 2011

    Fortunately " our " progress is not dependant on having to excuse or pass judgement on anyone else's actions, or what those actions were based on. My point was that " the community " is at risk due to actions of the individual members and spread of infection requires each individual to maintain their level of responsibiltiy and not abdicate it - certainly not to a teacher.

    Both Trungpa and Tenzin knew he had Aids and yet he continued to have unprotected sex with both male and female students in his elevated role as 'regent' to Trungpa and you think the responsibility lay with unsuspecting and adoring students? There were people who were deeply affected psychologically by those and other events in the USA and the responsibility firstly originated with Trungpa and his debauchery and secondly with Tenzin.
    Not only is it all well documented but I have communicated with some of the people involved.



  • DazzleDazzle
    Fortunately I'm not involved with Tibetan Buddhism any more, so all the intrigues and scandals go right over the top of my head.
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran

    Fortunately " our " progress is not dependant on having to excuse or pass judgement on anyone else's actions, or what those actions were based on. My point was that " the community " is at risk due to actions of the individual members and spread of infection requires each individual to maintain their level of responsibiltiy and not abdicate it - certainly not to a teacher.

    Both Trungpa and Tenzin knew he had Aids and yet he continued to have unprotected sex with both male and female students in his elevated role as 'regent' to Trungpa and you think the responsibility lay with unsuspecting and adoring students? There were people who were deeply affected psychologically by those and other events in the USA and the responsibility firstly originated with Trungpa and his debauchery and secondly with Tenzin.
    Not only is it all well documented but I have communicated with some of the people involved.



    Hi Dazz, that is not what I am saying ... in the situation you mention teachers clearly have a responsibility to their students and leaders in a community have a responsibility to " the community " to lead in addition to the responsibltiy each individual has.

  • DazzleDazzle
    edited September 2011

    Hi Dazz, that is not what I am saying ... in the situation you mention teachers clearly have a responsibility to their students and leaders in a community have a responsibility to " the community " to lead in addition to the responsibltiy each individual has.

    Oh, ok, sorry Andy ! :dunce:

    .
  • vixthenomadvixthenomad
    edited September 2011
    vix, you're hilarious! lol ! I'm becoming a real fan of your posts, lately. ^_^
    Why, thank you! I just say it as I see it. I always find it funny when people make a blanket criticism of a medium...using that medium to find their target audience.

    Here's his personal website, by the way:

    http://www.ethannichtern.com/



  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    One doesn't have to find "the One". One does need to find one who at least practices what he preaches, and holds to the precepts.

    True, but then there are plenty of people where this is not the problem. For these people, the problem is their seemingly incessant desire to avoid all rituals and traditions. Those are the kind of people that have a really hard time finding a a teacher or even a group to sit with. There comes a point when a person simply has too many preferences, that finding a teacher or group is simply impossible.
    Surely one shouldn't be looking outwards to what other people seem to be avoiding or what preferences they appear to have - but should be seeking what seems right for one's own study and practice.

    True, but sometimes you really don't need to look. I have had people tell me "I don't like that place, all the people are wearing black robes and that's just really weird! They have this big altar with a big gold statue and they all bow to it like they're praying or something! I don't like that, that's just too weird for me". Too weird? It's just a robe... They're bowing? Umm yea, that is a normal Buddhist practice...

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    We had this one guy at a retreat once and at retreats we eat in traditional temple style. With traditional temple style eating ritual, after you are done eating you clean your bowls with some tea and your fingers. He absolutely refused to put his fingers in the bowl because he thought it was "too dirty" so he left the retreat after one day, to go home and watch TV. That is just sad.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    Funny story!

    But maybe the guy had some kind of hosophobia?
    It is sad that in a retreat people can just go and there’s no aftercare.
    (I’ve been there and I can assure you it feels very lonely.)

  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    Do others think it is a funny story? My hope is that there would be some follow up, if the guy was in any way open to it and gave the opportunity a chance - of course he would not have to. Also, how a bowl is cleaned is not critical and of significant importance at any retreat, including silent retreats which I have been involved in.
    Many years ago when I attended a 10 day Goenka " Vipassana Meditation " retreat many individuals decided to leave for a variety of reasons, which at the time and even now seem very valid to me - and there was aftercare after at this retreat.
  • DazzleDazzle
    We had this one guy at a retreat once and at retreats we eat in traditional temple style. With traditional temple style eating ritual, after you are done eating you clean your bowls with some tea and your fingers. He absolutely refused to put his fingers in the bowl because he thought it was "too dirty" so he left the retreat after one day, to go home and watch TV. That is just sad.
    What 'traditional temple style' is that Seeker ? I don't understand why ones manner of eating would be important to the practice of meditation.

  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    edited September 2011
    The important issue for me has been that when I approach a choice of any offline sangha and teacher / teachings to guide practice, even if it is the intention and desire of any individual and/or group to inculcate in those who seek knowledge and guidance from them a specific path for their own purposes in a cult like fashion ( and this has not been my experience of TB or another tradition within Buddhism which I have so far had experience of ) maintaining my own clarity and vision will ensure that I do not accept such induction.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    We had this one guy at a retreat once and at retreats we eat in traditional temple style. With traditional temple style eating ritual, after you are done eating you clean your bowls with some tea and your fingers. He absolutely refused to put his fingers in the bowl because he thought it was "too dirty" so he left the retreat after one day, to go home and watch TV. That is just sad.
    What 'traditional temple style' is that Seeker ? I don't understand why ones manner of eating would be important to the practice of meditation.

    Korean zen style has a ritualistic type of eating procedure during retreats as do most other zen sects. It is more like a ceremony with specific procedures rather than just have something to eat. The act of eating is considered an act of meditation in and of itself as is every other activity from the time you wake up until you go to sleep. In Japanese zen it's called "Oryoki". Korean form is different, but the same in that it has a very formal, elaborate and structured procedure.




  • DazzleDazzle
    The act of eating is considered an act of meditation in and of itself as is every other activity from the time you wake up until you go to sleep.

    OK, thanks for explaining, seeker.

    I'd probably just call that practising mindfulness during everyday activities.

    .

  • Ch-an_noobCh-an_noob
    edited September 2011
    The title of this thread contains wisdom.
  • HubrisHubris
    Perhaps, however the people behind the content can teach me plenty, even though human interaction is ideal there are those who are unable to leave home who can surely benefit from it.
    If one seeks one can learn, and we can always learn. If there is nothing left to learn then we are dead, both literally and figuratively.
    I learn from each of you here, just as I have learned by trial and error in life, we all have something to offer - why should the vehicle matter?
  • vixthenomadvixthenomad
    Internet Buddhism could perhaps be renamed 'Cyberyana'.

    :lol:

    (Well, I found it funny anyway.)
  • HubrisHubris
    You might be onto something there Vix! :eek2:
  • shadowleavershadowleaver Veteran
    Internet/books can be hugely beneficial but I found that finding a sangha and a teacher took practice to a whole new level for me.

    It sounds very cliche but here I go: we are social animals.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited September 2011
    The Internet is just a computer network. Now, the people you find on the Internet - they'll teach you something. Just don't assume you know what the lesson subject is. :)
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Internet/books can be hugely beneficial but I found that finding a sangha and a teacher took practice to a whole new level for me.

    It sounds very cliche but here I go: we are social animals.
    This is an interesting point. The Buddha urged followers, especially monks, to be solitary, and to cultivate only the occasional "virtuous friend" they might find in their travel through life. He seemed to feel there was too much risk of falling under the wrong influences if one hung out with groups of people. I'm not sure we're all social animals.

    But I'm glad you found a good teacher and sangha that advanced your practice, shadow. Sounds like you found a good group.
  • Ch-an_noobCh-an_noob
    edited October 2011

    It sounds very cliche but here I go: we are social animals.
    This is an interesting point. The Buddha urged followers, especially monks, to be solitary, and to cultivate only the occasional "virtuous friend" they might find in their travel through life. He seemed to feel there was too much risk of falling under the wrong influences if one hung out with groups of people. I'm not sure we're all social animals.

    But I'm glad you found a good teacher and sangha that advanced your practice, shadow. Sounds like you found a good group.

    The Sangha have always emphosised living a community. Monastics often have group meetings to monitor whether everyone is still upholding the right understanding and the right precepts.

    If your living by yourself, who is there to confirm whether your understand is right? The trouble with totally relying on the internet is the same, people twist the words they read into their pre-existing understanding, especially if it involves facing one's problem. Especially many of the internet sources suffers from bad translation and people with very wrong views, blind leading the blind.
  • praxispraxis
    to go beyond a surface level dharma, which is mostly what he sees online, that one has to stay with things long enough to penetrate their true meaning.
    Penetrate or penetrated?
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    to go beyond a surface level dharma, which is mostly what he sees online, that one has to stay with things long enough to penetrate their true meaning.
    Penetrate or penetrated?
    Both depending which angle one comes from.
    I have penetrated, but that is just me.
    I won't talk about it. Not important.
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