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Atheist to Buddhist?
The other day I went to a temple in Leicester (UK) and spoke with a brother monk for an hour about Buddhism. For years I have strongly defined myself as an atheist, feeling a lot of anger against religion, mainly Christianity. I was not happy in my life and I was full of suffering. I wanted to find out about Buddhism so I asked for some information and I was invited to the temple for a talk. So much of what we talked about made so much sense and touched me on a human level. I was given a CD with photos, Dhamma talks by Ajahn Brahm and ebooks on Buddhism. Since then I have become fassinated by all the Dhamma talks of Ajahn Brahn and Ajahn Chah. As a philosophy on life I feel Buddhism isn't something for me to learn, but something to live buy. Already I feel happier and calmer every day. Maybe something to do with working through the guided meditation for 30 minutes every day included on the CD?
There is one thing though
I agree with the philiosophy of the 4 noble trueths and opening my heart and mind to stillness and acceptance, but I cant say I believe in 'energy'. I can't say I believe in karma as a 'force', or the concept of reincarnation.
I am a PhD student in Human Factors Design and as a result I question everything. Just because someone says something is 'true' doesn't mean I will just accept it without reason. The reason why I am/ was an atheist is because to believe in God/ Jesus/ Muhammed (etc.) required to suspension of thought and rationality in order to just accept it. Also they never gave me any inner joy. Buddhism has already filled me with so much joy I can not believe it! I walk around with a smile on my face and peace in my heart and I know I have only touched the edge of this universe. But again, how can I begin or continue my path in Buddhism is I don't in my heart believe in the fundermentals of Karma, past lives and reincarnation?
Sorry this post is so long, but I wanted to open up my heart and mind to this forum to be truethful to you all and open to recieve your thoughts and opinions wholly.
There is one thing though
I agree with the philiosophy of the 4 noble trueths and opening my heart and mind to stillness and acceptance, but I cant say I believe in 'energy'. I can't say I believe in karma as a 'force', or the concept of reincarnation.
I am a PhD student in Human Factors Design and as a result I question everything. Just because someone says something is 'true' doesn't mean I will just accept it without reason. The reason why I am/ was an atheist is because to believe in God/ Jesus/ Muhammed (etc.) required to suspension of thought and rationality in order to just accept it. Also they never gave me any inner joy. Buddhism has already filled me with so much joy I can not believe it! I walk around with a smile on my face and peace in my heart and I know I have only touched the edge of this universe. But again, how can I begin or continue my path in Buddhism is I don't in my heart believe in the fundermentals of Karma, past lives and reincarnation?
Sorry this post is so long, but I wanted to open up my heart and mind to this forum to be truethful to you all and open to recieve your thoughts and opinions wholly.
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Comments
Spiritual discovery is a pretty amazing and intense thing, but it's not an easy way to live your life - hence, I think, why so many people choose to opt out of religion/faith. I'm on the first steps of the path myself and finding it very hard at times. Having said that though, the benefits do seem to outweigh the difficulties - most of the time, at any rate.
In my opinion, to practice the core teachings of the Buddha, it isn't necessary to 'believe' in anything that you can't verify such as rebirth/reincarnation.
with kind wishes,
D.
I think the main thing to take from karma is that it's not about accepting a bad situation (Oh, it must be my karma to suffer this), but it's about using karma to change and create a good situation.
And neither do you have to take on board rebirth - just keep testing and developing your meditation practise. As a relative newcomer to Buddhism myself, that's all I'm doing. I try to keep an open mind, and I remember listening to Pema Chodron saying that we can have faith by thinking, "Well, the Buddha was right about 'this', so maybe he was right about 'that'". I liked that.
And there are 'atheist Buddhists'; you may want to google for some talks or books written by Stephen Bachelor.
I hope that's been some help; though take what I say with a pinch of salt; I really don't know an awful lot about Buddhism (and this isn't false humility here; I really don;t!).
As you are investigating an offline Theravada Forest Tradition group at the moment, I would suggest that you read/listen to more of their teachings and have a look at some of the resources here,especially those from Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Sumedho. You will find them clear and informative and free from superstition and speculation.
http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/index.php/teachings/eArticles
with kind wishes,
D
Buddhism appeals to me because, as you said (not in so many words) it's a way of life. not a a religion per se. Like Jesus (which many intermingle with god as a concept), Buddha was a man - a very wise one! He had realizations, insight,experiences, epiphanies, whatever you want to call them, that were indeed incredible, and that spoke to the essence of human kind and how we relate to each other and the larger picture. To me it is a road map of how to navigate life and the complexities that are mankind.
Worship....well, no, however I revere the teachings and wisdom of the Buddha, The Dalai Lama, and the others that have come along who are willing to take time to teach. Each perspective offers knowledge and insight into the human experience.
There is more to it than that, however if one only takes away from Buddhism how to treat each other with kindness and compassion, then we're doing a good job to ease the suffering of the world.
Buddhists = Atheists. More specifically, Agnostic-Atheists or even Apatheists if you want to go that far.
:whatever:
For instance let's say a former Christian turns to Buddhism. They learn what they need to know and begin to practice, even have a teacher, and practice for 3 years (for maybe 2 years they've felt comfortable calling themselves a "Buddhist"). After this time, they still haven't dislodged their belief in a Creator. That doesn't make them any less a Buddhist! They are a Buddhist because of the path they've chosen (and their effort to walk that path), not because of their beliefs. We don't define a Buddhist by how far they've walked on the path.
It helps to take the Buddha's teachings as a working theory, but that does not automatically free us of our existing beliefs. If our existing beliefs are a source of suffering, then through the practice they will be replaced with clarity of our reality. If we cling to defining a Buddhist very specifically, to always say they must be this or must be that, this too will be a source of suffering. It's all "not sure".
Buddhism could be guidance on the path of letting go of all beliefs. A way to the seeing, that no concept or phenomena is certain/permanent.
Do not worry about all these concepts. In the end they don't mean anything, but noise in the mind. It's a very natural 'mind made obstacle' for a very rationally thinking person.
Many of the westerners have had it in the 'beginning'. (Me too).
Okay, so being a teenager, on what worldly experiences do you base this statement?
Also, how can you speak to the experiences of a group of people, especially those who come from diverse views and backgrounds? Moreso because the majority of us were not born into Buddhism, and were likely exposed to other "religions". Cloud makes this evident in their post.
It may be a "pet peeve" of yours, however it's no reason to make broad generalizations when you do not have intimate knowledge of the groups of which you speak.
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
~Buddha
As someone has pointed out above, karma is just cause and effect. Rebirth is harder to rationalise and does require a degree of faith to accept, but it's not necessary to beleive it to get the full benefits of buddhist practice. Many buddhists choose to discard the notion of rebirth altogether.
@Mindgate buddhism is an atheistic philosophy, but that doesn't mean that all buddhists are atheists.
"Because There is Nothing to Be Attained,
The Bodhisattva Relying On Prajna Paramita Has
No Obstruction in His Mind."
~heart sutra
But, you know, that's just me speaking bluntly. Get it?
how silly would it be for him to expect you to believe in karma/rebirth upon hearing some words.
Buddha had a Pali word for his teachings which means, come and see
I don't think blind faith has a part in the come ---> see.
My own understanding is that Buddhism is non-theistic as the Buddha refused to answer if there was or wasn't a God/dess/Creator/etc.
If we ALWAYS get it wrong, why are you still here?
In metta,
Raven
@vixthenomad
And the whole Understand thing was completely taken the wrong way. You may have took it as demeaning, but I stand by the fact it wasn't meant that way. I could have said it different, but I didn't. I simply didn't. I didn't think of anything else to say at the time. I though a simple Understand? would suffice, but I guess not. Understand?
If a spiritual persuasion were something that agreed 100% with our views, how useful could it be? Don't worry about what you don't understand or don't agree with: If there is enough meat on the bone to get your attention, then eat that meat and let the inexplicable or disagreeable stuff fend for itself. You want to be a believer ... go ahead. You want to be a disbeliever ... go ahead. You want to count angels on the head of a pin ... go ahead. You want to become Christopher Hitchens and search out applause ... go ahead.
Gently but firmly, bring what makes sense to you into your life and nourish that. There is nothing saying you can't use your brains, but if Ph.D.'s had the real answers, we'd all be in clover. Fortunately or unfortunately, Swami Vivekananda had it right when he wrote, "The mind [he meant intellect] is a good servant and a poor master." So ... employ the servant but use practice to seek out the master. Don't get sidetracked by the ever-popular masters of intellect or emotion. Just practice and see what actually happens.
Just my take.
Whether I'm an atheist or anything else is a) none of your business (it has no effect on you or your practice), b) is irrelevant, and c) is nothing but a label you're putting on people, which is meaningless.
My advice is to get on with your practice. Ask questions relevant to *your* practice, and leave the rest of it for someplace else.
First, I would like you to stop cursing and using language that is inappropriate to a religion-moral website.
Second, in my profession of school administrator, I often had to give talks to groups of people -- civic, parent, colleagues, etc. I learned one of the most important ways of speaking to have people remember the most important points I was trying to make was to be careful about "bookending". They would almost always remember most what I said at the beginning and ending of a talk. I also learned that if I alienated my audience, I lost...without exception.
@mountains
Relook up the term troll. I'm afraid you are using it incorrectly.
I'm not sure, but this quote of a Zen master, Línjì Yìxuán(?∼867) might do some help for you. And it's also one of my favorite Zen quotes.
""" Followers of the Way [of Chán], if you want to get the kind of understanding that accords with the Dharma, never be misled by others.
Whether you're facing inward or facing outward, whatever you meet up with, just kill it!
If you meet a buddha, kill the buddha. If you meet a patriarch, kill the patriarch. If you meet an arhat, kill the arhat. If you meet your parents, kill your parents. If you meet your kinfolk, kill your kinfolk. Then for the first time you will gain emancipation, will not be entangled with things, will pass freely anywhere you wish to go. """
Today, I still do not find any reason to believe in the existence of supernatural beings, but MORE IMPORTANTLY than that, in light of emptiness, I think the ENTIRE QUESTION itself of whether a god exists or does not is simply irrelevant.
Karma is like creating ripples which affect the beings in the world around you. Those ripples may go out indefinitely into the future. Everything you think, say and do creates these ripples. Many of the effects can be experienced directly as well. In a sense, "I" am the karma that I create, for good or for ill.
From the understanding that "I" was never really born (previously did not exist and now do) and don't really die (previously existed and now I don't), rebirth is something that makes sense, but it isn't "me" that is being reborn, just like one wave rises and subsides and another rises up-- the same water, but a different wave.
Insofar as good or bad things occurring in one's life that might be carried over from a "previous life," I do wonder if its truly possible to refer to "my karma" or "your karma," but rather just "karma" in a general way. How do you demarcate on set of ripples from another? And how could you really know?
That's the only way I can say I find karma and rebirth helpful in my practice. That may or may not be an unorthodox perspective on the matter, but so far it works for me.
I still do not believe in any God nor do I feel the need to, Buddhism gave me a lot of answers and I'm glad it did. I do not think of it as a religion, it's more like a philosophy :P