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Is faith important at all?

edited September 2011 in Buddhism Basics
I don't have that much faith that significantly improved states of consciousness can reached by meditation. Part of me believes it or I wouldn't be trying but I'm not wholly convinced. Any one feel that that is an issue? Do I need to have faith? Do you need to have a clear grasp of the nature of the state you are trying to reach?

Comments

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Teachers do talk about having faith that the Buddha's methods and teachings will yield positive results. But I meditate because my mind enjoys the vacation from the habitual business, it enjoys the quietude. It's restful. No, you don't need to have a clear grasp of your goal. The important thing in the beginning is to practice stilling the mind. It can take months to work up to the point where you can maintain a quiet mind focussed on the breath (or whatever you choose to focus on) for 20-30 minutes with out the mind wandering. Patience is key with meditation. :om:
  • correction: I meant, "the vacation from the habitual busy-ness"
  • Faith is essence and clear grasp on faith is crucial in goal of buddhism. Otherwise, it is meditating blindly. And meditation does helpful in acknowledging faith and its attainment. Faith is essential in pureland buddhism though not as in the form of essence as mentioned.
  • Teachers do talk about having faith that the Buddha's methods and teachings will yield positive results. But I meditate because my mind enjoys the vacation from the habitual business, it enjoys the quietude. It's restful. No, you don't need to have a clear grasp of your goal. The important thing in the beginning is to practice stilling the mind. It can take months to work up to the point where you can maintain a quiet mind focussed on the breath (or whatever you choose to focus on) for 20-30 minutes with out the mind wandering. Patience is key with meditation. :om:
    Thank You Dakini for this very good description of "practice"! :)

  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    edited September 2011
    From "The Importance of Faith" in How to Raise an Ox by Francis Dojun Cook (pg. 17-19):

    When meditators begin to verify the teachings of Buddha in their own experience, faith is superceded by direct knowledge. This differs from the Christian tradition, for instance, where faith remains the central way of religious expression throughout the life of the "believer." For Christians, there is never a time when faith is no longer important, for the tenets of their belief are not experientially validated in the same way as the doctrines of Buddhism. For Buddhists, faith, while it is necessary in the first phase of development, is something that eventually becomes transformed. In Buddhism, there is a vast difference between believing that all things are impermanent and realizing that they are; but before that belief becomes true knowledge, one must practice in the faith that it is so, and will eventually be proven to be so by one's experience...

    The object of faith my be trusted provisionally because Buddhism itself teaches that the faith will eventually be replaced by knowledge and that any teaching not verifiable in this way ought to be rejected. Consequently, Buddhist faith is not blind and irrational, nor is it mere intellectual adherence to creedal orthodoxy. Acceptance of Buddhist doctrines is provisional because of the necessity of eventually replacing faith in them with experiential knowledge. Thus faith is anticipation of validation.

  • In other words, in Buddhist practice, faith is a necessary, but provisional, scaffolding.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2011
    You become "wholly convinced" by testing the theory and doing it. :) However, if you have some strange definition of "significantly improved states of consciousness" then you may be disappointed. What exactly does that mean?
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited September 2011
    You become "wholly convinced" by testing the theory and doing it. :) However, if you have some strange definition of "significantly improved states of consciousness" then you may be disappointed. What exactly does that mean?
    That jumped out at me as well. What you call a problem with having faith in improved states of consciousness might just be learning about the reality of a meditation practice as it compares to your preconceived notions and beliefs of what it does.

    Dakini gave a marvelous discription of meditation. When you think of it, all you're doing is sitting quietly, doing nothing. It has taught me to focus a bit and be mindful and recognize what's going on in my mind in my everyday life, but either you're awake or you are not. What other states of consciousness could there be, besides your normal, everyday mind?
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    I say... no.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Part of an internet dictionary's definition of "faith" is "strong belief in or trust of someone or something." Notice that it does not say "experience" in anything, so I think we can agree that faith has to do with what might be called a best guess or a hope. It also relies on the doubts that preceded it. Put more bluntly, it's a crap shoot, no matter how flowery or ornate it may get.

    Everyone begins a Buddhist practice with hope and belief. Those hopes and beliefs vary from person to person and accord with their circumstances, past, degree of discomfort or uncertainty ... and all the rest. In this regard, Buddhism may make pretty good sense, so we give it a try ... maybe by increasing our intellectual understanding or maybe with a little practical application, as for example, meditation.

    We put faith where we choose to put it and move forward from there. Some may envisage some bright light from the sky or a dissolution of all difficulties or a gee-whiz serenity or some other change for the better. This can go on and on as long as the understanding and faith are purely intellectual or emotional. But when making a practical application like meditation, our faith is bolstered by (and sometimes severely challenged by) experience. All the woo-hoo in the world cannot cope with a right knee that is fired up with pain.

    Gradually experience grows -- an experience that replaces intellectual and emotional understandings. With the growth of that experience, a new kind of something-or-other also grows. Meditation works ... and that's far more convincing than any emotional or intellectual faith. When you know how to ride a bicycle, you don't bother believing in it or hoping for it ... you just go out and ride it. Others may call this "faith," but ... well, why bother? What works, works ... isn't that enough?




  • Thanks for all the great input guys. As for the "significantly improved states of consciousness"... I didn't know what to expect from meditation. It must be somehow worthwhile or there wouldn't be a reason to do it... And i must say a lot of peoples descriptions of it do sound dishearteningly un-worthwhile. I guess the primary thing I meant by that is the bliss people say comes from deep meditation. I guess that is the "significantly improved states of consciousness" I am referring to... bliss.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Faith is where we begin. It is confidence that this Buddha guy did figure out how to alleviate suffering, and that his teachings can bring us to the same freedom. Many of the teachings being reasonable also helps.
  • Altered states of consciousness, bliss, "siddhis" (extrasensory or paranormal abilities), insight, all come eventually. Very eventually. If it takes months to get to the point of maintaining single-pointedness of mind for 30 minutes, it takes years to get to "the good stuff". Patience, shays. Rome wasn't built in a day. If you hurry, you won't get anywhere.
  • Faith in the teaching grows with experience and experience grows with faith. At first faith will just come from intellectually understanding how the teachings can work to change ones state of awareness, but later faith grows through directly experiencing the fruit of the practice.
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    The Role of Faith in Buddhism

    The Dharma of the Buddha is not a religion of blind faith. It is far more demanding than that. It is a religion of experience; of exploration and discovery. The Buddha said that his teaching was " ehipassiko " which means "come and see." Few of the great teachers in history have made such a bold and confident claim. His teachings not only withstand methodical examination, they demand it.

    Because of this, the role of the faith faculty in Buddhism may be difficult to grasp. We should clarify that by "faith" I mean the enlightenment factor and spiritual faculty of "saddha." This is often translated "confidence" or "conviction" and both of these words are very good, but I still prefer the straightforward "faith" precisely because it is a loaded word which challenges us to deal with the implications.

    Faith is a key factor in the list of wholesome states. It is one of the uplifting enlightenment factors, together with the related states of joy and energy. It is also one of the spiritual faculties, to be balanced with discriminating wisdom. Without wisdom, faith becomes superstition just as without faith wisdom is only a low cunning which justifies the defilements.

    If I might make a purely personal observation, having lived in one kind of practice situation or another for twenty years and been involved in teaching others for the last few, I can't help noticing that some meditators make great progress quickly and some struggle for years with little or no results. I've been putting some serious thought into what might be the common factor which determines the difference, and it seems to me that the strength or weakness of the faith faculty is perhaps the one key element.

    The question naturally arises, "faith in what exactly?" I would like to suggest three things we ought to have faith in. Looking at this question strictly from the practical viewpoint of progress in meditation, the yogi must first of all have faith in the practice. Without this confidence, you will get nowhere. In an actual retreat situation this also implies faith in the teacher and his instructions. If you can't feel complete confidence in the teacher, then find another teacher. You won't get anywhere if you question the meditation instructions all the time. For the duration of the retreat, just surrender and do it.

    It shouldn't need to be pointed out that faith in the teacher is not guru worship, which has no place in Theravada Buddhism. Faith here is not a helpless dependence on another, nor is a blind belief that the teacher is flawless. It is, or ought to be, a feeling of trust and confidence in the Dhamma presented by the teacher, as something valuable and worth heeding. During a practice session, it should be the courage and discipline to follow the instructions instead of the whisperings of monkey mind.

    The second thing that the Buddhist must have faith in to succeed is the Third Noble Truth, that there IS an end to suffering. This is, I think, the only metaphysical belief that is absolutely essential. Indeed, it may very well be the only one that is not actually a hindrance. It is not something susceptible to logical proof, only to the confirmation of direct realization. Before this point, you can only have faith that it is there to be found. If you don't believe this, then you are not doing meditation in the Buddhist sense at all, at least not Vipassana, but only self-psychotherapy. There is no point to speculation about what the end of suffering implies, it can't be arrived at by reason anyway. And until you actually glimpse it for yourself, you have to go on faith.

    The third and final element of essential faith is for many of us the most difficult. It is one I struggled with myself for many years. You must somehow find faith in yourself. Many people can happily believe that the Buddha or Ajahn Chah or Krishnamurti was enlightened, but that they could never do it. We need to recognize that this is a form of egoism. Who do you think you are anyway to be the only sentient being in the universe without the seed of Buddhahood?

    The reason that this arises is alienation, and the key to overcoming it lies in understanding that. You belong to the universe, you are part of the earth and the stars. In one sense, you are nothing special; you are made of the same elements and mental factors as all other beings and are an integral part of the pattern. Another angle on the same theme is to realize that you are very special indeed, because your innermost mind is absolute light, clear voidness and bliss. Learn never to doubt this and you are more than halfway there.

    Besides these three things, there is really nothing else to be believed. In fact a lot of the work of insight meditation is disbelieving. It is very difficult to acquire the knack of seeing the arising phenomena fully and honestly without imposing an imaginary matrix of mental proliferation. In the depths of meditation, you must be ruthlessly honest and radically skeptical.

    But this skepticism is far more profound and cuts far deeper than the niggling cynicism that usually passes for the word. It is not the chattering of doubt, which is one of the defilements, but the bold clarity of direct seeing, from which alone can arise the quality of Knowledge and Vision of Things as They Are. May we all find the faith to be so radically skeptical.
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    I think that was a good answer to your question, it's by Ajahn Punnadhammo.

    http://arrowriver.ca/dhamma/faith.html
  • I generally don't have faith in anything. If someone/thing wants me to believe in it, then they/it needs to show me that it is not just a farce.
  • johnathanjohnathan Canada Veteran
    Thanks @shanyin that was a great post, I have been questioning the idea of faith for some time and this has given me some clarity.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Part of an internet dictionary's definition of "faith" is "strong belief in or trust of someone or something." Notice that it does not say "experience" in anything, so I think we can agree that faith has to do with what might be called a best guess or a hope.

    I don't think that's true. :) For example, if you personally test the Buddha's teaching of a certain thing and find it to be true, that leads to an increase in faith for the other things he said, that you haven't tested yet, and that increase or strengthening is a result of experience. So if he said 100 things and you personally test out 50 and all of them turn out to be true, there is much greater support in having faith that the other 50 are true too, which comes from the experience of testing the first 50.

    Usually you trust someone because of your previous experience with them.
  • As for the "significantly improved states of consciousness"... I didn't know what to expect from meditation. It must be somehow worthwhile or there wouldn't be a reason to do it.
    Having any kind of fixed expectations (another word for grasping/clinging) is defeating the purpose. Meditation is just one tool in the box to help us ultimately reach enlightenment. Not to say it can't and doesn't have positive benefits in the here and now, but if you sit down to meditate thinking "This is going to make me feel XYZ" then IMHO you're defeating the purpose entirely. Go into it with an open mind and an open heart and let what happens happen. It may be labeled "good" or "bad" by your mind, but those are just the mental constructs of your mind, not actual fact.

    As Bill Shakespeare once said, "Nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
  • If you consider yourself a follower of Buddhism try to let go of that definition. Explore other philosophical teachers that seem to point to the same truths in different ways. If it weren't for Krishnamurti, Alan Watts, Eckhart Tolle, Lao Tzu... I wouldn't still be very interested and convinced in the possibility of a different way of living as I am today. If I would solely rely on a religion to do that...it would be a lot more difficult.

    I think that Buddhist culture and practitioners unintentionally put enlightenment on a pedestal as something very hard to achieve. There are precepts, there are different interpretations of the word of the Buddha, there are weird translations of certain concepts.....

    Anyway, the easiest way to simplify things, is to realize, that if nothing else....thinking less during our day, and being able to dissipate certain feelings in your body and whatnot....they all have a very short-term magic to them. So even if such a state were impossible, it wouldn't make meditation etc, any less practical.

    I don't believe in having faith, and I think it's detrimental. At the very least it goes against a big part of the buddhist philosophy of present moment awareness and believing only in what you see.

    It's not very wise to believe in something you have no way to tell whether it is true or not right? The truth is not conceptual or about opinion or belief. It's felt, or not.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Faith really does not go against any Buddhist philosophy. It is considered to be a very advantageous thing. The Buddha praised faith as something very good to have. The Pāli suttas list faith as one of seven treasures (dhanas), one of five spiritual faculties (indriyas), one of four "streams of merit", and one of the spiritual powers (balas).
    Elated Joy is the effect of Faith... Entrance is the function of Faith...
    Trusting is the characteristic of Faith...
    Decisiveness is the manifestation of Faith...
    Faith is the Hand, that lifts one out of Suffering...
    Faith is the Seed, that makes one grow much good Future...
    Faith is the Real Wealth, since it produces the best Advantage...
    Vism XIV 140
    When one has faith in the Tathagata, Unshakable and quite well established,
    And good behaviour built on morality, Liked by the Noble Ones and praised!
    When one has confidence in the Sangha, And a view straight and clear!
    Then they say, that one is not poor, That one's life is not wasted...
    Therefore should any intelligent person, aware of the Buddha-Dhamma,
    be devoted to the fine faith & moral purity, which gives confirmed conviction
    in this safe saving Dhamma.
    SN V 405Bhikkhus, growing in five areas of progress, the Noble Disciple attains a
    Noble growth, and acquires the essence, acquires the best, one possibly can
    in this bodily existence! What are these 5 areas: One grows in Faith, One grows in Morality, One grows in Learning, One grows in Generosity, One grows in Understanding.Developing in these five areas of progress, a noble disciple grows with a Noble Progress, and acquires the very core essence, acquires the optimal advantage, of this bodily existence. When one grows here in Faith and Morality, in Wisdom, Liberality, and Learning, the virtuous lay disciple acquires right here the very quintessence of all what is advantageous!Alavaka once asked the Blessed Buddha:
    What wealth here is best for any man? What well practiced brings happiness?
    What is the sweetest of all the flavours? How is this life best lived?

    The Buddha:
    Faith is the best wealth here for any human!
    Dhamma well practiced brings happiness! Nothing is sweeter than truth.
    A wise life lived in understanding is best...

    Alavaka:
    How does one cross the flood of ills? How is the ocean of existence crossed?
    How is all suffering stilled? How is one purified?

    The Buddha:
    By Faith is the flood of evil crossed! By attention is this existence crossed!
    By effort is all suffering stilled! By wisdom one is finally purified!
    Sn 182-184

  • Please do your meditation regularly for 90 days with minimum of two hours split in three or four sessions, and your state of consciousness will prove. You would need no faith then to convince yourself of it.
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