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Im done. Competely done.

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Comments

  • Hahah right on! In my experience, when the "normal" people tell you that you need to be committed for mental health issues .... you are doing very well on this path. It's another aspect of life trying to coax you back into the amusement park!
    If you're not "normal", then what are you?

  • Who is acting like a realized being in this thread? You have to ask yourself that.

    Your second idea that dependent origination means we should stop meditation is also suspect. Ok and you say to stop asking questions???

    There either is no acting, or there is only acting, your call.

    Meditate if you want to, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't, only do it if you enjoy it.

    No never stop asking questions. In fact drop everything except questions about the self.

    All that was meant is do not pretend to be the Buddha. Do not try to follow in his footsteps. You need to do everything on your own or its meaningless. Kill the buddha. Chop off his head. Throw him in the barrel of acid. I fell into these same patterns. I thought that if i meditated, and stopped killing insects, and was genuinely kind to everybody that eventually all the pieces would fall into place.

    How silly that was .... shoving feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken!
  • Hahah right on! In my experience, when the "normal" people tell you that you need to be committed for mental health issues .... you are doing very well on this path. It's another aspect of life trying to coax you back into the amusement park!
    If you're not "normal", then what are you?
    I am nothing. I'm not any different from the "normal" people though. Would it have mattered if the sentence was phrased differently ?

  • edited September 2011

    Hell I could cling to the idea that I'm a cherry tomato if thats what arose, it no longer matters. Clinging, thoughts, and concepts are in the dream!!
    It...Does matter, though.
    It harms you
    and when it harms you, it harms everyone and everything.

    Also, do not kill The Buddha. He is mankind's cherished teacher. You are correct in saying that it is foolish to expect "the pieces to fall in place" simply because you follow the Precepts, however, these Precepts are an aid.

    A blind man without a walking stick falls and flails.
  • Mintyfresh0Mintyfresh0 Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Me? It harms me? Where is me?

    Even "harm" is subjective. Take a lion killing a boar for example. From the boar's perspective there is harm being done. From the lions perspective he needs the meat to live, and there is no harm... Is there really even a boar to be harmed? It's all mirrors reflecting mirrors.


    Anyway, I could sit in this thread all day and have fun with words, but .... eh yaknow.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited September 2011
    There is a story about two americans who were visting a temple in asia. They saw a statue of the buddha and one said to the other that he would spit on it to show that he was unattached to the buddha. As he spit on the buddha a monk came in and saw him and exclaimed in surprise asking "why did you do that"? The american confidently replied that he was unattached to the buddha and so had spit.

    The monk thought about this awhile. Then he replied: "you spit, I'll bow".

    Whats important is to act appropriately. Then you are a buddha. It doesn't matter whether you see a self or not. It matters if you see clearly and are open to the environment to act appropriately.

    The buddha represents awakened heart and mind.
  • Mintyfresh0Mintyfresh0 Veteran
    edited September 2011


    Also, do not kill The Buddha. He is mankind's cherished teacher. You are correct in saying that it is foolish to expect "the pieces to fall in place" simply because you follow the Precepts, however, these Precepts are an aid.

    If you are seeing a Buddha, you must kill him. Eviscerate him. Rip out all of his organs and feed them to the tigers! There is no Buddha, so if you are seeing one, you must destroy it. Get past it. It's imaginary. There is only Buddha-nature, but no Buddha. If you find a Buddha on the road, f*cking kill it. They are only clues left by others who made the journey. Mere footprints, and signposts to help out those who inevitably be making the journey after you.
  • There is a story about two americans who were visting a temple in asia. They saw a statue of the buddha and one said to the other that he would spit on it to show that he was unattached to the buddha. As he spit on the buddha a monk came in and saw him and exclaimed in surprise asking "why did you do that"? The american confidently replied that he was unattached to the buddha and so had spit.

    The monk thought about this awhile. Then he replied: "you spit, I'll bow".

    Whats important is to act appropriately. Then you are a buddha. It doesn't matter whether you see a self or not. It matters if you see clearly and are open to the environment to act appropriately.

    The buddha represents awakened heart and mind.
    The monk sees that his act of bowing is the same as the americans act of spitting. The only appropriate action is the one that takes place.
  • If there is no 'you' then it doesn't matter if you kill buddha ;) And it doesn't matter if you eat or sleep too.

    Again. You need to understand the 'two truths' teaching of relative and ultimate truth.

    You have a mistaken view of emptiness and it would be better for you to be attached to the body than to take this view of no 'you'.



    Anyhow this is all just 'thinking', good to talk with you. You.

  • "The monk sees that his act of bowing is the same as the americans act of spitting. The only appropriate action is the one that takes place."

    That was my understanding as well.
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    I = awareness.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran


    Meditate if you want to, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't, only do it if you enjoy it.
    That's not what the Buddha said. :)

  • I = awareness.
    No, awareness simply is. This is where I was stuck extremely recently too. Saying that you are awareness delegates that there is awareness(1) being aware of stuff(2). It is all one, never two. Awareness is. There is no self involved.


    Meditate if you want to, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't, only do it if you enjoy it.
    That's not what the Buddha said. :)

    Haha okay, very funny :)

  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    edited September 2011
    from Subtle Wisdom, by Sheng Yen:

    Suppose that after much practice you experience the feeling of disappearance of the self into enlightenment. Tremendous bliss wells up in you, and you think, "Truly, my self has disappeared completely and I have entered enlightenment." Have you really entered enlightenment, though? Since you still approach enlightenment with a sense of self, the final achievement is still unrealized. However, experiences like this are so powerful that they are likely to mislead even an experienced practitioner.

    Once, during a retreat, a student told me that she didn't want to meditate anymore--she just wanted to talk. So I invited her to the interview room and said, "Fine, lets talk."

    She said, "I'm very happy. Its as if, in one instant, the whole world brightened up. I looked out the window, and everything was beautiful. The birds and flowers, everything, is just a part of myself. I feel very beautiful. I've gotten into it."

    I asked her what she had gotten into. She said, "Isn't this what you call enlightenment?"

    I told her she was just having illusions, and she became very unhappy and said, "I've made such tremendous progress, and now you tell me its just an illusion."

    I told her that it is precisely her great desire for enlightenment that creates such illusions. "Go back and continue to work hard," I said.

    On another retreat, a participant did not show up for afternoon meditation. I sent a couple of people to look for him and after a long while they found him in the woods. He was extremely happy and brought back a small dried twig, which he very respectfully offered to me and said, "I've gotten it!"

    I took the twig and threw it out the window. He became upset, angry in fact, and complained that it was a precious thing that he had worked so hard to get. What do you think about this precious thing?

    In both of these cases the students had worked hard and achieved a deep experience. But enlightenment is not a possession you can hold on to, as if it were a jewel.

    (pg. 103-104)
  • Thanks, that wisdom shall be be of aid.

    It's a warning that the bliss of no self is not enlightenment. Don't even become attached to the concept of no self for that too is illusion. There is no enlightenmet .... Only life proceeding as normal.

    Would you agree with this interpretation?
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    edited September 2011
    I = awareness.
    No, awareness simply is. This is where I was stuck extremely recently too. Saying that you are awareness delegates that there is awareness(1) being aware of stuff(2). It is all one, never two. Awareness is. There is no self involved.
    What is this "I" deep down at its core? Awareness. Am I saying that an I exists? No, I am saying that this 'I' actually is awareness. We confuse a self with what is actually awareness.
  • There is no enlightenmet .... Only life proceeding as normal.

    Would you agree with this interpretation?
    Yes. And no.

    I can only speak, of course from my own limited understanding. I think this is where the two truths comes in handy and is important to remember (I think @Jeffrey brought this up earlier). Buddhism (especially Zen), in using words to point in a certain direction, jumps from one relative perspective to another in order to "triangulate" the practitioners aim. AT THE SAME TIME, there is no aim at all-- because that's just more grasping, like a dog chasing his own tail.

    From the point of view of relative truth, there is "me" and there is enlightenment. From the point of view of absolute truth, there is no "me" and there is no enlightenment; there is no not-me and there is no not-enlightenment either. The tricky thing is knowing when which perspective is being used (I remember being absolutely STUMPED reading about various Zen masters, and Dogen is notorious for not telling you when he's "changing lanes" so to speak. One has to pay very close attention or end up thinking "Oh, I'm already enlightened, so why bother?" It can be very misleading-- or rather, we mislead ourselves.

    And yet the point is not to simply move beyond the relative truth in order to abide in the absolute truth-- this would be more duality, more separation, and the emptiness of emptiness is not realised. One abides in neither the absolute or the relative. What is left then? Fetching water and chopping firewood.

    It is true that once one crosses the shore one may dispense of the raft (for "oneself"-- not for others, who still need the raft!). But I think there is the temptation in everyone who practices to think they've already arrived on the other side and step off the raft far too soon! People too easily take this metaphor to mean that teachings and practices are worthless, when in fact they are invaluable tools. The Buddha, even after awakening, continued to meditate.

    So from one point of view, there is self and enlightenment. From another point of view, there is not. But it doesn't become "traceless" until there is no not-self and no not-enlightenment also. Only AFTER all that do you get "fetching water, chopping firewood."

    "When buddhas are truly buddhas, they do not necessarily notice that they are buddhas." ~ Dogen, "Genjokoan"

    If I thought to myself "I've arrived" then I really haven't.
  • i don't doubt your freedom because it is very obvious.

    now you're going to learn how truth expresses itself through you.
    you're going to learn how to intergrate truth in your whole human experience.
    you're going to see how compassionate action spontaneously arises when there is no clinging.

    you're also going to suffer a lot. all your karma is going to be blantly obvious. you no longer have the option to avoid what is true. everything will be thrown into the surface and you will respond accordingly.

    the bliss and freedom is great, but it will fade.

    welcome to the ordinary. smile and enjoy yourself.
  • Minty - for someone who's done, you're doing a lot of reading and responding, I must say! :)
  • In Buddhism, this is called 'little stuff'

    I hope you continue to practice, for if you do not, then it is just another crazy person in the mix.

    The question to what you say is 'So what'

    Well wishes,
    Abu
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Master Sheng-Yen:

    "When one has a transformative experience of some sort, it is wrong to declare on one's own that it is Chan enlightenment. This is useless, since you don't havea any standards of judgement to begin with. One needs a truly experienced master to check and approve it for you..
    Most experiences of people who think they are enlightened are false, or at best incredibly shallow; and if such a person goes to a master who doesn't have proper sanction and a stable enlightenment himself, it is a big problem, especially if that master casually gives his acknowledgement.
    About seven years ago a student came to me who had practiced for many years, his express reason being to get my approval of his enlightenment. When I asked him "Why are you here?" He said, "You are a Chan master, you already know what I am here for." When I refused to play his game and give my approval, he said "I came here thinking that you were enlightened; now I see that you are not." He rejected me as a Chan master because I did not approve him as the master! This kind of person is incapable of learning anything from anyone. Ultimatey, genuine sanction is not an easy thing to obtain."
  • Also, internet forums are IMO probably not the best place to get your own agreement - although I understand you are of course convinced. Nevertheless, life, in my own experience :) will show you the way.

    Well wishes,
    Abu :om:
  • Thanks so much Riverflow, and you too Tayaki.
  • _()_
  • I wonder if the Buddha would have liked pizza.
    Liking it would imply attachment I think.
    The Buddha would probably simply recognize the pizza as having life sustaining qualities, and therefore see it as good.
    From my knowledge, just because you are enlightened does not mean that your personality/ego is no longer part of you. You retain your personality, but are not a slave to it. So, technically, the Buddha could have "liked" pizza if it had a pleasing taste to him.
    He certainly would have liked the pizza. Enlightenment is no mystical junk, reality does not change at all, simply one's perception of it. Even that being said, mindfulness fluctuates in arahats, in other words, when an arahat orders a meat lover's and notices there's no pepperoni, he is capable of being irked. The dogma of the messianic Buddha is another story up to one's own investigation.
  • A person sits in a movie theater watching a movie that's been playing for years.

    The movie has been playing for so long that the person mistakes himself for a character in the film.

    Something happens in the film. Something dramatic.

    The person realizes he's the one watching the movie once again.

    Then he realizes that hes not even that.

    He is not the movie, he is not the one watching the movie, he is not the projectionist booth, and he is not the theater.

    But how can this be? How can he not be any of these things he wonders.

    Then it dawns on him.

    The movie has no reality without the viewer, the viewer has no reality without an awareness of a viewer, the projectionist booth has no reality without somebody in the audience to witness it.

    All of these things are dependent on each other.

    All of these things are one.

    Instantly, he realizes that he is nowhere to be found, yet at the same time, paradoxically, he is all of the things creating the movie.



    I haven't read all of the replies, but after a swift glance I think it's important to realize that an intellectual comprehension of the three characteristics is not enough, for intellectual comprehensions are preceded by dualities.

    Read this and perhaps even this. Without mature equanimity in the fourth vipassana jhana, it is very unlikely that you have fruition, of course, it is not unheard of and also among others.

    If you achieved this, congradulations, there are certainly too few people of attainment in public circles.
  • This thread is really making me want to have pizza :D
  • This thread is really making me want to have pizza :D
    To be honest, I ordered pizza last night after seeing that initial comment. LOL
  • Mintyfresh0Mintyfresh0 Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Haha okay I agree, F*ck all of this, and eat a pizza. It's about as close to the divine as you can get anyway lol.

    Sh*t man I wish enlightenment at least came with a free pizza!
  • Fetch water, chop firewood, eat pizza! :D
  • HAHAHA you guys will love this.

    The song from willy wonka..... there are buddhas on the road everywhere indeed!!!


    Come with me
    And you'll be
    In a world of
    Pure imagination
    Take a look
    And you'll see
    Into your imagination

    We'll begin
    With a spin
    Traveling in
    The world of my creation
    What we'll see
    Will defy
    Explanation

    If you want to view paradise
    Simply look around and view it
    Anything you want to, do it
    Wanta change the world?
    There's nothing
    To it

    There is no
    Life I know
    To compare with
    Pure imagination
    Living there
    You'll be free
    If you truly wish to be

    If you want to view paradise
    Simply look around and view it
    Anything you want to, do it
    Wanta change the world?
    There's nothing
    To it

    There is no
    Life I know
    To compare with
    Pure imagination
    Living there
    You'll be free
    If you truly
    Wish to be
  • were there mushrooms on your pizza?
  • Nah just everlasting gobstoppers.

    Actually I love pineapple on my pizza.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited September 2011
    pineapple, jalapeno, porkfat (take a pick)... my favorite..meat (salt, sweet/sour, hot)

    for veggie? Tomato, black olive, mushroom, onion, green pepper
  • Pork fat? Thats a new one for me lol
  • Hi and dry, by radiohead


    Two jumps in a week, I bet you think that's pretty clever don't you boy
    Flyin' on your motorcycle, watching all the ground beneath you drop
    You'd kill yourself for recognition, kill yourself to never ever stop
    You broke another mirror, you're turning into something you are not

    Don't leave me high, don't leave me dry
    Don't leave me high, don't leave me dry

    Drying up in conversation, you will be the one who cannot talk
    All your insides fall to pieces, you just sit there wishing you could still make love
    They're the ones who'll hate you when you think you've got the world
    all sussed out
    They're the ones who'll spit at you, you will be the one screaming out

    Don't leave me high, don't leave me dry
    Don't leave me high, don't leave me dry

    Oh, it's the best thing that you've ever had
    The best thing that you've ever, ever had
    It's the best thing that you've ever had
    The best thing you've had has gone away

    So don't leave me high, don't leave me dry
    Don't leave me high, don't leave me dry
    Don't leave me high
    Don't leave me high
    Don't leave me dry
  • I'm no stranger to radio head and their slices of truth.

    Do you listen to tool as well? You can literally see maynards spiritual progression from album to album.
  • Also this shit is weird I'm sitting here laying on the floor with my cat. I'm staring at him and he's staring at me, and I can't help but think "who is doing the seeing" .... And just like that instantly I'm the event instead of an entity. Instantly all becomes unraveled for a brief moment. Then I can't help but think of the ryokan poem where it says " can you see how much value the ball in my pocket has?"

    Of course there is an overwhelming joy that the ball exists. How absolutely amazing that the experience of ball is available. How fantastic life is. All life is truly a divine experience and I'm so grateful to be alive.

    It's all such a head trip.
  • It is said that Trungpa Rinpoche met with another meditation master. They sat together in silence, while the others listened to hear what they would say. Eventually one of them broke the silence and said: "they call this a tree". They both laughed.
  • Hahaha you know what, that IS funny.
  • @Mintyfresh0 Radiohead. Radiohead. Radiohead.

    I love Radiohead...
  • Interesting story:

    The anime ergo proxy (which is all about waking up from the illusion) used the song 'paranoid android' without permission for the ending credits. Radiohead considered taking legal action, but instead they were sent a free copy of the series. They watched it, and decided that it more than did their song justice and took it as a compliment.
  • lotus flower by radiohead.

    man that song just makes me want to thom yorke dance.
  • Interesting story:

    The anime ergo proxy (which is all about waking up from the illusion) used the song 'paranoid android' without permission for the ending credits. Radiohead considered taking legal action, but instead they were sent a free copy of the series. They watched it, and decided that it more than did their song justice and took it as a compliment.
    The powers of good anime and Radiohead combine to form an unbeatable force.
  • In retrospect - the title of the this thread was not a very good one.

    Can anybody speak about their process of ..... "rewiring the brain" after seeing the truth?

    I'm still functioning from old patterns, which are based on illusions. It's like watching myself function in a way that isn't from the truth, but there doesn't seem to be a simple solution to fix it. How does one go about clearing out all of the disgusting and untrue garbage in the mind?
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited October 2011
    Effort-driven detachment. Starve the craving, allow it to wither and die and be replaced with mindful stillness.

    Old habits are like a cat that keeps coming around because you keep feeding it. Stop feeding it and it'll still come around for a while to meow fiercely at you, but if you continue to ignore it without fail it'll eventually go away for good. Habits die in the same way.
  • the 8 fold path first begins with right view. the rest is what you have deal with when you arrive at sudden enlightenment.

    but no worries. there really isn't anything for you to do as the process will take care of itself. this is not to say keep doing stupid things. you know what you need to do or not do.

    start moving from the mind to the torso. feel more.
  • the 8 fold path first begins with right view. the rest is what you have deal with when you arrive at sudden enlightenment.

    but no worries. there really isn't anything for you to do as the process will take care of itself. this is not to say keep doing stupid things. you know what you need to do or not do.

    start moving from the mind to the torso. feel more.
    I do not agree with you @taiyaki! And I think you are misleading people.
    Who says the process will take care of itself?

    What he achieved, I achieved long before I become a Buddhist. Long before I even heard the name Buddha or enlightenment. I was at high school.
    Very strange thing happened. My sister first realized it. She looked at me and all of a sudden, out of the blue, asked me "who are you?"
    First I ignored her, thinking that she was joking.
    Then I realized she wasn't joking. She had empty eyes and looking at me like I am stranger. When she asked it the second time, I realized suddenly everything is empty and everything is an illusion. Simply this is my first moment of realizing the emptiness of self and the object.
    That moment hit me from time to time over the years. Whenever I felt it, I turn my self away from it. It was a scary feeling of lifelesness, groundlesness.
    My sister, on the other hand, continued with her life while I am stuck with it. She built a life, get a husband, kids etc.
    After I became a Buddhist, I start to progress again.
    It is about getting rid of attachments and cutting all the roots of defilements. Seeing the true nature of things is essential. But this is not enough to stop the karma. Karma will stop when you cut the volitional formations according to pali cannon.
    Just because you realize that you are driving in a car, doesn't make you know how to drive the car.
    If you sit back and relax that you are saved already - you may be making a mistake. You still have to work until you reach enlightenment. Work = 8 fold path.

    Go see an enlightened teacher, a buddhist lama, and ask her what she thinks about your attainments.
    When you see a truly enlightened teacher, he will know who you are by just looking at you.
    There are signs of enlightenment. Do you have them?
    Sorry but you are giving advice like you are already enlightened ?? Only an enlightened person can verify others' enlightenment and their progress.


  • if one has an authentic awakening then the process of completion is on its way.
    you may have a non abiding awakening or have a full on complete awakening.

    i agree with you and i am sorry if i am misleading people. those who are healthy and have the correct frameworks can easily transition to their new orientation with life. as the average time it takes is about 3 - 4 years and some even make the quicker transition.

    awakening goes from awakening our from the mind to awakening to the heart then towards the gut, and gradually deepening to the original clinging. this a developmental model and doesn't necessarily correspond with everyones experience. but nonetheless it is important to mention because many people when they have authentic awakenings are only awakening to the non dual nature of awareness or awakening from the mind. this is fine, but it is only the beginning of the maturing process. as now there is nothing to an "agent" to actively do as the inner resources of awareness actively engage and question the assumptions/clinging of the mind. as one progress it reaches towards the heart and finally to the primal urge of grasping.

    don't make this into a i need to do this to get this. or i need to work out my enlightenment muscles to get to here. true awakening ends the need to strive or seek. it is seeing clearly into the nature of reality.

    in doing so without "clinging" one can actively engage with their karma. the patterns of our conditioned minds persist and we actively see them and can do things about it.

    but if we pay attention this process is actively engaging by itself. so in a way there isn't anything for one to do unless it is seen with the correct lens. if seen from the illusion then there can be a lot of problems and potential uprooting of ones own awakening. for example people can reify of cling onto an awareness and create such structure that it becomes almost like a superego.

    the natural process is towards compassion and feeling and being more present in being a body.

    sorry for the confusion and if this doesn't make sense to you then throw it out.
  • @taiyaki
    no worries...people are different and purification process may work differently. So your process may not necessarily work on another...Your color maybe white which symbolizes peace and balance...My color maybe violet which symbolizes cult and psyche...We have different paths. So many varieties ... So we cannot speak about others' enlightenment...dangerous stuff...thats why there are teachers, they can speak to a wider audience. They are trained that way.
    Other than that...its fine...

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