4NT: Is there a better term than "suffering"?

Daozen

The 4NT are usually translated as talking about 'suffering'.

But is this really the best English translation of the original Pali? What alternatives are there? I have heard 'stress' before, are there others with a good justification in the scriptures?

Namaste

seeker242

suffering, pain, discontent, unsatisfactoriness, unhappiness, sorrow, affliction, anxiety, dissatisfaction, discomfort, disquietude, anguish, stress, misery, etc, etc, etc.


All of the above. A better term for it would be "Dukkha". To try and pin it down to one English word will miss the point IMO

DhammaDhatu

the 4NTs are about suffering or mental torment & afflication

dukkha in the 4NTs literally means 'difficult to bear'

the 4NTs are not about unsatisfactoriness, i.e., the dukkha of the 2nd characteristic

'suffering' and 'stress' are appropriate translations for the 4NTs

but 'suffering' and 'stress' are inappropriate for the 2nd characteristic

regards

riverflow

I think I'm with @seeker242 on this-- better to leave the term untranslated. There is no one word (not in English at any rate) that can capture the many facets of dukkha.

BeachHouseGuy

Dukkha

Daozen

suffering, pain, discontent, unsatisfactoriness, unhappiness, sorrow, affliction, anxiety, dissatisfaction, discomfort, disquietude, anguish, stress, misery, etc, etc, etc.

All of the above. A better term for it would be "Dukkha". To try and pin it down to one English word will miss the point IMO

Good list of synonyms. I take your point about the difficulty of translation. 'Dukkha' may be a word that can't be translated perfectly, but I'm curious to at least hear the alternatives.

dukkha in the 4NTs literally means 'difficult to bear'

This is VERY interesting, because for me, it has a very different connotation than suffering. It's not as overtly negative, whilst still encapsulating the feeling I have of what dukkha must mean. Can you explain where this translation comes from? What is the derivation? Is it yours, or someone elses?

the 4NTs are not about unsatisfactoriness, i.e., the dukkha of the 2nd characteristic [...] but 'suffering' and 'stress' are inappropriate for the 2nd characteristic

I'm not sure what the '2nd characteristic' is? You mean the 2nd NT?

regards

Daozen

Dukkha

ENGLISH translation

ajahndoe

There is no one perfect translation of the word 'dukkha' into English, but if you would think in terms of all of these types of words -- unsatisfactoriness or dissatisfaction, frustration, stress, suffering -- that would be the meaning in several words. As pointed out by DhammaDhatu, 'difficult to bear' is also an appropriate translation.

Dukkha is the opposite of peace. It is resistance to what is and wanting for what is not, both being craving that has ignorance as cause.

Spaceless

In fact 4 NT is not suffering. It is liberation. Prior to liberation, it is necessary to identify the delusion of suffering. :rocker:

DhammaDhatu

:aol:

DhammaDhatu

This is VERY interesting, because for me, it has a very different connotation than suffering. It's not as overtly negative, whilst still encapsulating the feeling I have of what dukkha must mean. Can you explain where this translation comes from? What is the derivation? Is it yours, or someone elses?

yes

'difficult to bear' fits well with the mundane (unenlightened) dukkha in the introduction to the 1st Noble Truth, namely, birth, aging, sickness, death, sorrow, pain, separation, etc

for example, sickness is difficult to bear but, with the right attitude, it can be beared or endured

thus dukkha becomes a 'challenge' rather than an absolute

but 'difficult to bear' does not really fit the summation of dukkha, when the Buddha summarised what dukkha is from an enlightened perspective, namely, clinging to the five aggregates

as for the derivation, the following link may help (from page 15 in the PDF or page 538 at the bottom of the text)

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Buddhadasa_Anapanasati-Fourth_Tetra.pdf

regards

wmw111

Our world is called Saha - Where by it means the beings are able to bear suffering externally and internally.

I think unsatisfactoriness is what the 1st NT is all about.

Floating_Abu

Ultimately, dissatisfaction

Cloud

This from the Teachings of Ajahn Chah might shine some light on "Dukkha". It might not be a one-word English translation, but really we don't need a one-word translation if we really understand what "dukkha" means. I wholeheartedly agree with the last line that dukkha is one of the most misunderstood Buddhist concepts... we usually just don't get it the way it's meant. We have to see for ourselves.

Dukkha: refers to the implicit unsatisfactoriness, incompleteness, imperfection, insecurity of all conditioned phenomena, which, because they are always changing, are always liable to cause suffering. Dukkha refers to all forms of unpleasantness from gross bodily pains and the suffering implicit in old age, sickness and death, to subtle feelings such as being parted from what we like or associated with what we dislike, to refined mental states such as dullness, boredom, restlessness, agitation, etc. This is one of the most misunderstood concepts and one of the most important for spiritual development.

Dazzle

.... the following link may help (from page 15 in the PDF or page 538 at the bottom of the text)

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Buddhadasa_Anapanasati-Fourth_Tetra.pdf

regards

Thanks very much for providing the helpful info at the link DD

driedleaf

Ignorance of suffering is in itself suffering. On that note, I think it doesn't really matter what you want to call it because it's just a label that we should use to remind us to accept it as it is. Any word that closely relates to it all points back in the same direction anyhow. I think "suffering" and any other words that we want to use should suffice as long as we use it for its right purpose.

Zayl

"unpeachy" has a nice ring to it.

thickpaper

"inevitably negative"


"negatively inevitable"


"negative"

Cloud

"Unsatisfactoriness" is still the best one-word translation I've ever heard. It's because we're not satisfied with things as they are that we want them to be different. We'll never be satisfied, unless we understanding that it's our ignorance of how things really are, and our wanting, that cause our dissatisfaction in the first place... and undertake a practice to see reality clearly and cease the wanting.

ajahndoe

Two thumbs and eight fingers high in the air for that explanation Cloud!

Daozen

Thanks Cloud, that is a good translation.

thickpaper

I like and often use "Unsatisfactoriness". One think I think it doesn't capture are those moments of severe dukka, like Anger, Fear, Panic... these states are immediate and critical, rather than that yearning, nagging Dukka of unsatisfactoriness that infects most of our moments of dukka.

But i guess it is to be expected there can be no definition that can satiusfy in every case, its such a deep Concept!

Namaste

Cloud

Yeah there isn't really a perfect translation. Dukkha has several layers of meaning. At the least we should think Unsatisfactoriness+Suffering, but why stop there? We're always trying to make it neat, but it's best to find all the meanings and truly try to understand all forms of Dukkha and see that their causes are ultimately the same.

grout4cake

I like unsatisfactoriness , isn't that what constantly propels us into action?

I also like dis-ease,in that it factors in our physical state as well