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To perfect man is impossible.
sndymorn
Veteran
The observation has been made: The difference between a liberal and a conservative is that a liberal believes in the perfectibility of man and conservative does not.
For arguments sake, I will leave Buddha and HHDL (Mother Theresa too) out of this discussion as exceptions to the rule. I believe this is where I separate from Buddhists. I enjoy the practical aspects of Buddhism and its benefits : compassion, living in the moment, fostering an empty mind( so to speak), believing that what one does comes back to you; BUT
I do not , even in a trillion lifetimes ( Buddhist reckoning I think) expect MAN to be any different from the nature he possesses: greedy, self absorbed and competitive.
The bard said ," There is nothing new under the sun, " and the wisdom of this assertion will forever be true.
Must a Buddhist believe in the perfectibility of man?
For arguments sake, I will leave Buddha and HHDL (Mother Theresa too) out of this discussion as exceptions to the rule. I believe this is where I separate from Buddhists. I enjoy the practical aspects of Buddhism and its benefits : compassion, living in the moment, fostering an empty mind( so to speak), believing that what one does comes back to you; BUT
I do not , even in a trillion lifetimes ( Buddhist reckoning I think) expect MAN to be any different from the nature he possesses: greedy, self absorbed and competitive.
The bard said ," There is nothing new under the sun, " and the wisdom of this assertion will forever be true.
Must a Buddhist believe in the perfectibility of man?
0
Comments
student says to master please take away my anger. master says "where is your anger?" All of these are adventitious impermanent stains. Because they are not essential nature by the buddhist full path they may be purified.
Its like your bedroom. Underneath the mess there is cleanliness that you just have to work at to get back to the cleanliness. Similarly it is never "fixed" it is always change and flux and you cannot find the 'clean' because the bedroom has no essence; it is always change.
"To some men peace merely means the liberty to exploit other people without fear of retaliation or interference. To others peace means the freedom to rob others without interruption. To still others it means the leisure to devour the goods of the earth without being compelled to interrupt their pleasures to feed upon those whom their greed is starving. And to practically everybody peace simply means the absence of any physical violence that might cast a shadow over lives devoted to the satisfaction of their animal appetites for comfort and pleasure." ~ Thomas Merton
I agree with you to an extent. Man cannot be perfect. Even someone who has obtained "enlightenment" is still very flawed in the eyes of some. Everyone has flaws, nobody is perfect. But through good psychology we can improve ourselves in almost every aspect. So I think to look at it in practical terms, mental liberation (or as some would call it enlightenment) is more a process of not being a victim to suffering, and finding ways around it to liberate yourself and maybe even others among the way.
we must have an ideal. we must have something to look up to. the buddha set the bar. so we must practice, practice, practice so that we may liberate ourselves for the sake of everyone else.
perfection is wisdom and compassion!
when you are hot from the sun, don't you go to the shade?
such is truth.
Person , I am greedy, self absorbed and competitive and this limits me. I can rationally override these traits for moments, hours, years (never entirely) but they remain part of me. I believe we are all the same. I further believe these are not faults but challenges. We can , in a very mechanical way, act against these traits , but they remain who we are.
right view is very important as it is the first part on the 8 fold path. the whole path itself is intertwined and as such right view is extremely important.
in the zen tradition there is the satori or realization of the inherent buddha nature. such realization marks the beginning of the purification of karma. thus we practice and keep morality to infact sow the seeds so that we may literally "wake up" to reality as it is.
the end of greed, hatred, and delusion is possible and even more so enlightenment is possible. to see enlightenment as something gradeur or something that takes millions of life to cultivate is a great hinderance. i suppose it doesn't help that most people place such freedom on a pedastal. it really benefits to surround yourself with beings who are on the path and thus you see literally the goal and see that the goal is possible. in some ways faith is needed and eventually confidence takes the place of faith as we ourselves see the fruits of our own making.
in zen we assert that samsara is the same as nirvana. nirvana is just the ceasation of suffering. do we always suffer? no, so we taste nirvana at times and we taste samsara at times. it is all a matter of perspective.
i've always heard the term you fake it till you make it. to emulate what the buddha was like is to be the buddha. so compassionate action, freedom, acceptance, equanimity, joyfulness, etc. all these qualities must be cultivated and faked and forced until we ourselves see the value in such qualities. this is taking control of our karma and sowing the good seeds to counteract the nevative seeds.
everyone wants to be happy. just be happy. fake it. how else do you think happiness is going to start?
if the three poisons are seen as not beneficial for oneself and others then it ones responsiblity to actively engage in practice to overcome and see through such negativity.
But just for clarification, what does the OP mean by "the perfectibility of man"? Are we talking about a society that is able to provide for everyone's basic needs, like the best of the European countries? I think that's what liberals strive for. Or are we talking about the perfectibility of individuals, which is a completely different thing? I don't think the liberal agenda involves everyone becoming Buddhists, or achieving psychological harmony, or something. I think it's about politics and economics.
Just wondering what the intended topic was, here.
This is a really tough concept to consider and I am in over my head.
Parenthetically, I see the usefulness of Buddhist practice for the individual but cannot accept any chance of universal application. As I have heard said, " because A man is malleable, does not mean MAN is perfectible."
I do not wish to offend anyone here. I have learned in my time at this site to enjoy your company.
I think you have a pessimistic view. Think about it: if the Buddha believed that humans can't be other than greedy, self-absorbed and competitive, he would've just walked away and spent the rest of his life in meditation. He believed his 4 Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, mindfulness, precepts, etc. could help people change for the better. Some have had success with this.
Now, if you mean: is the whole of mankind "perfectible", i.e. able to overcome their ego-driven nature, that's a very differenent question.
And please be aware that some people by their very nature are generous, altruistic, and non-competitive. Maybe if you give it a try, as a little game or exercise, to look around and notice such people as you go through life, it might give you hope, or at least, not such a bleak outlook.
I am pessimistic, but in the purest sense(LOL).
Thank you all for your comments. Each one of you has added something to my understanding.