Buddha, a sexist?

zombiegirl

Just curious what one should make of these quotes:

"In crossing the river [from Saṃsāra to emancipation] (...) crocodiles are a designation for women."
Gautama Buddha, Majjhima Nikāya 3

"If it were not for women being admitted into [our order], my teachings would have lasted 1000 years, now they will not last 500."
Gautama Buddha, Dīgha Nikāya 3

"Women, with their two-fingered wisdom [i.e. stupid], have a difficult time [understanding what I teach]."
Gautama Buddha, Saṃyutta Nikāya 4

"It cannot happen that a woman may become a Tathāgata, a Sammsambuddha."
Gautama Buddha, Aṅguttara Nikāya 3.14

From this wikiquote.

vixthenomad

Well, with regard to how long his teachings lasted he was wrong with both estimates!

Cloud

Personally, I don't think he said anything of the kind. An enlightened mind is not a sexist mind. It's more likely that this stuff found its way into Buddhism by unenlightened and sexist followers.

vinlyn

Personally, I don't think he said anything of the kind. An enlightened mind is not a sexist mind. It's more likely that this stuff found its way into Buddhism by unenlightened and sexist followers.

Fair enough, and I suspect you're correct. But I guess this means that scriptures are not the exact words of Buddha, as so many Buddhists claim?

vixthenomad

Do they really claim that? I think it's far more likely that, after 2,500 years and a lot of translations into other languages, a fair few 'Chinese whispers' have found their way into the texts.

vinlyn

Do they really claim that? I think it's far more likely that, after 2,500 years and a lot of translations into other languages, a fair few 'Chinese whispers' have found their way into the texts.

I agree with you completely, and even so, the wisdom is there. In fact, whether Buddha said it or someone else wrote it, wisdom is wisdom.

But yes, a lot of Buddhist believe Buddhist scriptures are the exact words of Buddha.

MindGate

Well, monasteries have kitchens, right?

LMAO. I'm only kidding.

taiyaki

it would be very ironic if the original buddha was a female.
it's fun how females are pretty much written out of religion as main characters.

on a side note...bodhidharma's master was a female and she made bodhidharma travel east to spread zen. that is a fun thought to think about.

now the buddha being sexist? i don't think so, but he was aware of the differences. both in culture and physical. yum yum.

zombiegirl

Personally, I don't think he said anything of the kind. An enlightened mind is not a sexist mind. It's more likely that this stuff found its way into Buddhism by unenlightened and sexist followers.

i thought the same thing, cloud. the above quotes weren't just anti-woman, they were... well... sorta bitchy. lol. to paraphrase, "women, being stupid, will have a tough time understanding what i teach." is not something i can see an enlightened mind saying, it isn't right speech. but it can open a difficult door to say, "well, obviously, someone else added that into the sutra!" once you say that, you could claim that with anything you don't agree with.

i was just curious to see if anyone else had any sort of insight into these quotes that i don't have with my limited knowledge of sutras. i was still none the less shocked to read them in wikiquote.

on a side note...bodhidharma's master was a female and she made bodhidharma travel east to spread zen. that is a fun thought to think about.

i didn't know that taiyaki, very cool.

Dakini

Some of these quotes have been discussed here before, and the conclusion was that they were later additions. The crocodile passage, obviously, was intended for monks, I would imagine. There are other quotes that show the Buddha was in favor of ordaining women. Ch'an Noob posted the title of a book that addressed this question precisely, and the description said it was full of Buddha quotes that were in support of women. Thanks for reminding me; I've got to order that book!

It certainly isn't news that some of the suttric material is not the words of the Buddha.

Dakini

It is interesting, however, that there don't seem to be any equivalent quotes warning nuns about the dangers men pose. Instead, there are extra vows nuns take, in order to protect them from assault by monks.

Sabir

Even if Buddha had written that quote (which I highly doubt), it is superseeded by his one of his main teachings of "believe nothing, test everything".

All of those quotes would instantly fail under scrutiny if we tested them. In all his teachings Buddha said don't believe a word he says, test everything for yourself. This makes whether or not his teachings should be taken "word for word" largely irrelevant.

I think we can find sexism to some extent in all religions and literature that dates back more than 100 years (i.e. all of it). Asides from the church of the flying spaghetti monster of course ;-)

riverflow

"Why are men special? Emptiness is emptiness. Four great elements are four great elements. Five skandhas are five skandhas. Women are just like that. Both men and women attain the way. You should honor attainment of the way. Do not discriminate between men and women. This is the most wondrous principle of the buddha way."

"Those who are extremely stupid think that women are merely the objects of sexual desire and treat women in this way. The Buddha's children should not be like this. If we discriminate against women because we see them as objects of sexual desire, do we also discriminate against all men for the same reason?"

~ Eihei Dogen (1200-1253), Raihai Tokuzui ("Receiving the Marrow by Bowing"), Shobogenzo (translated by Kazuaki Tanahashi)

[written in 1240]

Gumbercules

Even if Buddha had written that quote (which I highly doubt), it is superseeded by his one of his main teachings of "believe nothing, test everything".

All of those quotes would instantly fail under scrutiny if we tested them. In all his teachings Buddha said don't believe a word he says, test everything for yourself. This makes whether or not his teachings should be taken "word for word" largely irrelevant.

I think we can find sexism to some extent in all religions and literature that dates back more than 100 years (i.e. all of it). Asides from the church of the flying spaghetti monster of course ;-)

Awesome point. And to add on to what was said earlier about quotes being attributed to the Buddha that he most likely never said, I thought most of his specific words have been lost anyway? Now I see all over the place the Buddha said this specifically and this and that, when it's a lot more likely that almost none of it actually came out of his mouth right?

bodhipunk

The thing about wiki is that anybody can edit them. I tried to locate these quotes, and I can't find them. The quote about the order only lasting for 500 years is only found in the Vinaya, I cannot locate it in the Digha Nikaya.

Interestingly, on the matter of the teachings only lasting 500 years, I found this quote on accesstoinsight.com: "In the Vinaya (monk's discipline) the Buddha is represented as saying this, but such a prophecy involving time is found only here. There is not other mention anywhere in the whole of the Vinaya (discipline) and the Suttas (discourses). This makes it suspect as an intrusion. The Commentaries, as well as many other later Buddhist writings; have much to say about the decline of the Buddha's Dispensation in five-hundred-year periods, but none of this is the word of the Buddha and only represents the view of later teachers."

Here's some links to the suttas in question:
MN 3: http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Dhammadayada_Sutta
DN 3: http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Ambattha_Sutta
AN 3.14 : http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/14._Dhamma,_the_Co-regent

SN 4 includes a whole bunch of suttas which deal with Mara trying to outwit the Buddha. Scroll down the page to find them here: http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Samyutta_Nikaya

Maybe they're using different reference numbers, but I can't locate these quotes.

Jeffrey

Those quotations are pretty horrible. I pay attention to what is taught to me by my guru. The material I am taught is regarding seeing that there are more choices in a situation and not being swept away by neurotic thinking. To trust the basic sanity of our minds. In none of the teachings I have received are women mentioned as inferior. A majority of the people (I have seen) in my sangha are female, though there are both males and females.

Dakini

The lama who taught me the Lam Rim said a female birth is inferior. It's better to have a male birth, because you can get more accomplished, there are fewer obstacles, was the explanation.

bodhipunk

Again, I question the validity of the quotations. Obviously, Buddha encountered sexist attitudes in his time. In fact, SN 3.16 tells a story of a King who is displeased with having a daughter. Upon hearing about his, Buddha tells him that a even a woman is noble when she is wise and virtuous, as would be her offspring. Therefore, there is no reason to be displeased.

I would also suggest reading this article on Buddhist women during the time of Buddha. Obviously, way back then the social scope of women at the time was extremely restricted. Buddha even admitting that women were capable of arahantship (AN 8.51) was extremely radical and unprecedented.

@Dakini Perhaps in a sexist, patriarchal society there would appear to be less obstacles for men. In a culture of racial inequalities and white supremacism, white privilege may seem to have its perks. Yet there are always obstacles to overcome. Especially for those white males in such societies!

Dakini

Great, bodhipunk--I was hoping someone would come up with some quotes like this!

Well, I was just saying what the Lamrim teaches. But I think the kind of obstacles that exist have nothing to do with the capacity for spiritual practice and attainment.

Thanks for the references.

bodhipunk

But I think the kind of obstacles that exist have nothing to do with the capacity for spiritual practice and attainment.

You're absolutely right, of course. These "obstacles" have nothing to do with the capacity for practice and attainment - it all has to do with our own determination and virtue. All of these "obstacles" or challenges could be seen as potential opportunities to learn and grow, which could possibly enrich our own understanding of life.

Maybe that's what Buddha was pointing towards when he taught everyone, regardless of caste or gender. He always placed a higher value on a person's ethic and virtue rather than what gender or caste they were born into. It's what we do that counts, not how we're born - which is exactly what Buddha said in Snp 1.7. That's my two cents, anyways.

Dakini

@bodhipunk I looked up AN 8.51 The Buddha says women are capable of arhatship, but immediately adds that admitting women to the sangha will shorten the life of the Dharma by 500 years. That's nice that he says women are capable of arhatship, but as far as using the passage to convince someone the Buddha wasn't sexist, it's a bit iffy. I interpret it as his saying women are spiritually equal to men in their potential, but the presence of women would distract men to the point of shortening the life of the Dharma. So it's not misogynistic, the way I read it. but others may not be so easily convinced. Any more quotes in which the Buddha is supportive of women following the Dharma?


It should be noted that the very fact that the Buddha included women in the sangha was a radical act for his time. I read that in so doing, he was risking the viability of the sangha, meaning that he was well aware that he could alienate powerful sponsors of his sangha by including women. But he did it anyway. I think that says a lot. Perhaps we should judge the Buddha more by his actions than by the words attributed to him in the canon, when it comes to the question of his "sexism". If actions speak louder than words, the Buddha's action in this instance speaks loud and clear.

B5C

Sorry for being a bit off topic. One thing I like about this thread that we debate the authenticity of parts of the dharma if we have to. Not like other religions I lived with that clearly think what the book says is true, must be true. That their holy books are 100% authentic with no issues of 2,000 years of the telephone game.

Ok back to topic.

Dakini

Yes, B5C. One thing I've learned on this forum is that the suttras are highly debatable and open to interpretation.

vinlyn

Sorry for being a bit off topic. One thing I like about this thread that we debate the authenticity of parts of the dharma if we have to. Not like other religions I lived with that clearly think what the book says is true, must be true. That their holy books are 100% authentic with no issues of 2,000 years of the telephone game.

Ok back to topic.

Actually, over time you will find that there are quite a few people in this forum that believe the Pali canon is the exact words of Buddha. Most of us are more realistic.

bodhipunk

To the above posters, this article questions the authenticity of the supposed prophecy. Honestly, I feel as if the prophecy, if not the entire account, was a later addition. There is no other mention of this again anywhere else in the suttas or Vinaya.

In DN 16, Buddha recalls that soon after his enlightenment he said to Mara, "I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples". If he had no intention establishing a bhikkhuni order, why would he have said that he mentioned them so soon after his enlightenment?

Later, in that same sutta (DN 16.6) Buddha is quoted as saying, "After I am gone, the sangha — if it wants — may abolish the lesser and minor training rules." So it is quite possible that the Vinaya has been altered and changed since Buddha's time.

Finally, SN 37.4 sure seems to encourage womens' education.

Dakini

One question that people often overlook is: why did the Buddha think the Dharma would only last 1000 years in the first place? I wonder what he meant by that. The "true" Dharma would only last 1000 years, or the Dharma in general? Seems a bit pessimistic. Maybe he never said anything about it, like you say, bodhipunk.

Thanks again for the quotes.

bodhipunk

The reason behind "1000 years" is never given. My take is that it was meant as a long time, and not as a literal amount of time. Here's another interesting article which suggests that the "eight special rules" of bhikkhunis is not cannonical but is instead a later addition. If that is the case, the prophecy regarding the time span of Dhamma is also a later addition.

However, Buddhism did begin its initial decline in India after about 1500 years - not that it is related in any way.

vinlyn

One question that people often overlook is: why did the Buddha think the Dharma would only last 1000 years in the first place? I wonder what he meant by that. The "true" Dharma would only last 1000 years, or the Dharma in general? Seems a bit pessimistic. Maybe he never said anything about it, like you say, bodhipunk.

Perhaps he was basing that upon communication of the time.