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Unproduced space versus produced space...
Tosh
Veteran
Hi all,
Just a quick question; I think I might be overcomplicating something I'm trying to understand here, but what is the difference between produced space and unproduced space?
Produced space is absence of obstructive contact and is impermanent because it changes from dark to light, depending on the Sun (I guess).
But unproduced space is more subtle (somehow) and is the mere lack of obstructive contact.
Both sound pretty similar to me.
What's your thoughts?
Just a quick question; I think I might be overcomplicating something I'm trying to understand here, but what is the difference between produced space and unproduced space?
Produced space is absence of obstructive contact and is impermanent because it changes from dark to light, depending on the Sun (I guess).
But unproduced space is more subtle (somehow) and is the mere lack of obstructive contact.
Both sound pretty similar to me.
What's your thoughts?
0
Comments
Are we heading for another 'Imponderable'.....? :hiding:
From http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101014170109AAlC65T
"I havent studied much science I only know the Buddhist explanation of space.
According to this there are 2 types of space:
produced space and unproduced space
Produced space has a size and area etc the space in your room or the space between your computer and yourself. Its area is defined by objects or the distance between objects. This type of space changes. Like when you go out of the room the space between you and the computer changes. Things that are produced change moment by moment. Unproduced space is unchanging and infinite. It is more the fact that space exists ie there is a place to put things only because space exists. This sort of space always has and alway will exist as long as mind exists. It is just the way it is and does not change so its not produced. The space in a cup can be destroyed by filling it so there is no space there, but unproduced space cannot be destroyed. Nor does it have any shape or size
So if a big rock explodes to create this universe, with time the 'bits' of it will always be moving outwards so the space that the bits exist in will get bigger. If any scientist answers after me and wants to help me understand better please explain in more detail thanks
In summary the answer to your question is that the bits will continue to go outwards because they are moving. There is no such thing as an impermanent phenomena that is not moving. Some will move outwards and some inwards. Just as when you put a piece of soil in a glass of water it will travel outwards as far as the water exists so to the bits will travel as far as unproduced space exists which is endless."
From http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=11457&sid=aa5516057cabe363da9e0306e1bec653
"the table in an empty space was taught to me as an illustration of emptiness, not an example of emptiness itself. It illustrates the difference between produced and unproduced space which is easier to grasp than the emptiness of inherent existence. The difference between them is the object that is negated by emptiness: produced space in the first and inherent existence in the other. I was taught that the purpose of teaching produced and unproduced space is to bring one closer to making the inferential leap to the emptiness of inherent existence"
Hope that helps.
Next question?
PS: I think we should create a new forum called "Imponderable, non-Buddhist related questions"
As to your question, your google search seems to have explained it well. Produced space seems to allow for a measurement of some kind. Unproduced space has no reference point and its existence allows for phenomena to have someplace to exist in. Unproduced space is much harder to understand and that may be what is meant by it being more subtle, idk.
It also sounds like it correlates with quantum physicis in that atoms can be everywhere at the same time, and nowhere, but require an observer for them to be in a fixed point.
Near as I can figure out, produced space is the area bounded by an enclosure, which may be destroyed or expanded or filled by changing the boundaries, while unproduced space is the physical universe itself which we move around in.
I'm still struggling with it, since understanding unproduced space in relation to Emptiness, isn't that straight forward, I don't think.
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"Although we talk about empty space, the emptiness of space that we normally refer to is not the same as the emptiness of our body. However, empty space is the best example to help us to understand the meaning of profound emptiness. To benefit from this example, we need to understand clearly the meaning of space (Tib. nam kha).
There are two principal types of space: produced space and unproduced space. Produced space is the visible space that we can see inside a room or in the sky. This space may become dark at night and light during the day, and because it undergoes change in this way it is an impermanent phenomenon and can be seen with our eyes. The characteristic property of produced space is that it does not obstruct objects. For example, if there is space in a room, we can place objects there without obstruction. Similarly birds are able to fly through the space of the sky because it lacks obstruction, whereas they cannot fly through a mountain! Therefore, we can say that produced space lacks, or is empty of, obstructive contact. This mere lack, or emptiness, of obstructive contact is unproduced space. Since unproduced space is the mere absence of obstructive contact it does not undergo momentary change and is therefore a permanent phenomenon. Whereas produced space is visible and quite easy to know, unproduced space is a mere absence and is rather more subtle. However, once we understand unproduced space, we shall find it easier to understand emptiness.
Unproduced space is a negative phenomenon. A negative phenomenon is a phenomenon that is realized through the explicit elimination of the phenomenon's object of negation by the mind that apprehends the phenomenon. In the case of unproduced space, the object of negation is obstructive contact, and space is realized by a mind that explicitly eliminates this object of negation. Furthermore, unproduced space is a non-affirming negative, which means that unproduced space is realized by a mind through its elimination of the object of negation without that mind realizing another positive object. The mind that realizes unproduced space negates obstructive contact but does not affirm any other phenomenon. In contrast, some phenomena are affirming negatives. An affirming negative is a phenomenon that is realized by a mind that explicitly eliminates the phenomenon's object of negation and that indirectly realizes a positive phenomenon. An example of an affirming negative is my cousin's lack of being female, since the mind that realizes my cousin's lack of being female indirectly realizes that my cousin is male. On the other hand, unproduced space does not imply any positive phenomenon - it is the mere absence of obstructive contact.
Like unproduced space, all emptinesses are non-affirming negatives. For example, the emptiness of our body is the mere lack, or absence, of inherent existence of our body - no other object is implied. Thus, the mind that realizes the emptiness of our body merely eliminates the object of negation (i.e. the inherent existence of our body without realizing any positive phenomenon. The non-affirming negative that is the mere absence of inherent existence of our body is the emptiness of our body.
Both unproduced space and emptiness are non-affirming negatives but they have different objects of negation. The negated object of space and emptiness are non-affirming negatives but they have different objects of negation. The negated object of space is obstructive contact, whereas the negated object of emptiness is inherent existence. It is because unproduced space and emptiness differ only their object of negation that an understanding of unproduced space is so helpful in gaining an understanding of emptiness.
Continued in next post.
To understand unproduced space, we must first know its negated object, obstructive contact. This is not very difficult to know - even insects appear to know what it is. Feor example, an insect will walk along a table as long as it can sense the obstructive contact of the table's surface, but it will turn back when it reaches the edge of the table where the obstructive contact ceases. It seems that the insect knows what is obstructive contact and consequently can recognize its absence. If we ourself understand what is meant by obstructive contact, and know that unproduced space is simply the mere absence of this, we are then able to realize the meaning of unproduced space. Similarly, if we wish to realize emptiness, we must first understand the negated object of emptiness, which is inherent existence. "
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I could go on, but I'm tired of typing!
So, unproduced space just sounds like the space there is when there's 'nothing there', but I also think 'produced space' sounds the same.
I'm missing something.
Why does it matter......?
Non-relational or unproduced space arises when we see that space is an inherent quality of the universe, such as in meditation, emptiness contemplation, or atomic study. Then space can be seen as a inherent quality of all objects... emotions and chairs are both mostly space, and constructing a house or a mental label can not change its inherent empty nature. In this way, all we can do with unproduced space is change our own view of it. Said differently, it is impossible to construct an empty mind, we evolve our view of mind to see that it is already empty. This is unproduced space, such as an observation of a room that is full of objects, air, photons, chaotic motion and is also empty.
And although this isn't directly related to my course, my Buddhist foundation course teacher, Geshi Tashi, says that 'we Buddhists' have to do the hard work of understanding.
I'm trying to understand.
I hope that helps.
It's a bit similar to the Serenity Prayer:
"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference."
It's all very well Doing the Hard Work of Understanding, but in Understanding, will your overall understanding of what it is to practice Buddhism, be one iota improved?
Please know, I really am not trying to belittle your curiosity - or trivialise the comment of your teacher - but sometimes, it's healthier to quit and know that "I don't know" carries no stigma.
The Buddha explained:
I come to teach Suffering and the cessation of Suffering."
That's really most of what we need to follow.
if we create suffering for ourselves, in asking questions to which a conclusion seems obvious, yet leads us further to believe 'we're missing something'....is that constructive learning?
http://www.tricycle.com/dharma-talk/noticing-space
In meditation, we can be alert and attentive; it’s like listening. What we are doing is just bringing into awareness the way it is, noticing space and form. For example, we can notice space in a room. Most people probably wouldn’t notice the space; they would notice the things in it—the people, the walls, the floor, the furniture. But in order to notice the space, what do we do? We withdraw our attention from the things and bring our attention to the space. This does not mean getting rid of things, or denying the things their right to be there. It merely means not concentrating on them, not going from one thing to another.
The space in a room is peaceful. The objects in the room can excite, repel, or attract, but the space has no such quality. However, even though the space does not attract our attention, we can be fully aware of it, and we become aware of it when we are no longer absorbed by the objects in the room. When we reflect on the space in the room, we feel a sense of calm because all space is the same; the space around you and the space around me is no different. It is not mine. I can’t say “This space belongs to me” or “That space belongs to you.”
Space is always present. It makes it possible for us to be together, contained within a room, in a space that is limited by walls. Space is also outside the room; it contains the whole building, the whole world. So space is not bound by objects in any way; it is not bound by anything. If we wish, we can view space as limited in a room, but really, space is unlimited.
Noticing the space around people and things provides a different way of looking at them, and developing this spacious view is a way of opening oneself. When one has a spacious mind, there is room for everything. When one has a narrow mind, there is room for only a few things. Everything has to be manipulated and controlled; the rest is just to be pushed out.
Has anybody in this discussion had a deep profound realization into emptiness? One that you can abide in for long periods of time? I am just curious to know because I have not and we all talk about such things, but do we fully realize them?
I think that's what I've been taught anyway.
But I still had to remind myself that proper Buddhist practice is something we do every moment, not something we achieved yesterday.
when looked inwards there is vast spaciousness, which is nothingness.
when looked outwards there is a vast spaciousness, which is fullness.
a point of reference amongst a sea of consciousness.
Have definitely missed you fede!