Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Mathematics of Rebirth and Population Multiplication
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Who knows, maybe the nature of reality is dream like and it merely appears the population of the multiverse is rising ad infinitum, but one day some cosmic mind will have a grand awakening and return everything to the zero state. In that way, reality in dual worlds, while in manifestation, wouldn't have to "add up mathematically."
Yeah, I would appreciate you leaving this discussion, as you add nothing but contention to it, and nothing constructive.
The mind makes this or that. Prior to thinking all is already one. Karma is not mine, how can i own energy?
Anyways... Thanks for the ideas. Who knows...
When we think in orderly, mathematical terms, we're thinking with a limited human (unenlightened) mind. We're not able to conceive of the great complexity by which karma and rebirth work. We make certain assumptions that appear logical to us, but are in fact the result of a limited perspective on the greater reality, the infinite universe.
For example (no, this isn't a cop-out "it's imponderable" answer
There are variables involved in this question that are numerous and barely conceivable to us. You can't squeeze it into a tidy equation. And the New-Age answer, if I may digress, usually is that new "souls" are being generated by the Divinity all the time.
To elaborate on one of Talisman's points: think of all the people who have died of AIDS. All the people who die in natural disasters, and man-made disasters, like 9/11. Lots of "consciousnesses" there waiting around for a chance to be reborn. Although the population does appear to be expanding, it experiences these sporadic, localized contractions as well.
To be honest, all this seems as nonsensical as the Christian view some jealous creator God sits on a throne judging the world and requires blood to forgive sins. It just doesn't make sense or have anything to back it.
I can agree with the Buddha on many things, but I think this whole "rebirth/karma" thing could be pure fiction.
I don't know... All is well.
Let is assume that rebirth/reincarnation does occur. If this is the case, in both Hinduism and the rebirth believing sects of Buddhism, there are alternate dimensions/universes/realms.
Hindus believe in the Astral, where there are infinite planes of existence with infinite beings. The amount of creatures in each realm shall fluctuate if each die and go to different realms. Same goes for rebirth believing sects of Buddhism. There are the Hell realms and Heavenly realms and many other little sub-sect realms. So, just because we are getting more creatures currently does not mean that there isn't a supply to get any from.
For example:
Earth realm: population = 5,000.
Heaven realm: population = 5,000.
Hell realm: population = 5,000.
Over time this may change.
Earth realm: population = 7,000.
Heaven realm: population = 1,000.
Hell realm: population = 7,000.
We're getting more, but we have a supply to get more beings from. A large supply too, assuming that we have infinite beings.
I was 42 once, a long time ago.
Since then, I've been re-born more times than I care to count. Or remember, for that matter.
If you haven't read Stephen Batchelor's "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist", I recommend it. He's a big supporter of the concept of Dharma without rebirth.
Yea I'm ok, I'm going thru a breakup and dealing with a lot of strrssful crap wat with my rediculous job as a debt collector and not having a car etc. I know I can come off kind of cynical. I'm just not being very patient right now.
@amida
I'm sorry if I insulted u earlier. Next time ill try to be more mindful.
Having had prev. experience in relationships counselling, feel free to PM, even if it's just to rant, rave and vent.....
Back to topic.
It's alright. No, worries. I apologize too.
@compassionate_warrior
I'd say I'm also a supporter of the Dharma, yet don't accept Rebirth. I'm not saying I reject it, I just don't have the evidence I need to accept it. That may change in time, and I may come to accept it. At this time, I feel it's unlikely, but I remain open.
@MindGate
You touched on the math I wanted to discuss.
You used an example of 15,000.
I'll use your example:
Earth realm: population = 5,000.
Heaven realm: population = 5,000.
Hell realm: population = 5,000.
Say, in the earth realm 100 streams of consciousness escape the cycle of rebirth and are no longer reborn. Then the numbers would be:
Earth realm: population = 4,900.
Heaven realm: population = 5,000.
Hell realm: population = 5,000.
Are new streams of consciousness birthed into Samsara to make up for the 100 that escaped the cycle? And do those newly introduced streams into Samsara enter at a rate higher than those escaping? If so, you have an ad infinitum of streams entering Samsara, while you have a small amount escaping, which creates terrible mathematics.
You need some kind of balance in rebirth for it to work logically. And we do live in a universe of brilliant mathematics, which always equal Zero. If the numbers in this cycle cannot return to zero, then it's probably not true.
Sentient beings in Hell = infinite
Sentient beings in human realm = infinite
Sentient beings in heaven = infinite
When someone achieves nirvana it is not like a soul or "stream of consciousness" is "leaving the system." There is is soul that can depart. Instead it is just an event, like a wave crashing on the shore, or the birth of a sun. An event.
So instead think of it as:
Time and space = infinite
When and where does the buddha arise? Impossible to ascertain because there is no such thing as "when" and "where" when time and space are infinite.
problem science?
In mathematics the notion of emptiness finds expression in the number zero, as well as in contemporary set theory. The concept of zero was discovered in India prior to the sixth century A.D. The "Arabic" number system we use today is neither Arabic nor Greek in origin. In fact, the digits 0123456789 go back to India where they were first created. The ancient Indian number system distinguished itself from other positional systems by virtue of allowing the use of zero as a legitimate number. Interestingly, the number zero did not exist in Greek mathematics, because the Greeks were essentially geometricians and had no use for the mathematical concept of a non-entity, neither did it exist in Egyptian mathematics. The Arabs, who encountered the Indian number system during their early conquests in India, found it superior to their own traditional system which used letters, and thus adapted it to develop Islamic mathematics. The Arabic word for zero is "sifr", meaning "empty." In the 12th century, the Italian mathematician Leonardo Pisano Fibonacci studied Arabian algebra and introduced the Hindu-Arabic numerals to Europe. The word "sifr" thus became "zephirum" in Latin and "zero" in English.
In the ancient Indian context, the number zero did not originally refer to nothingness or nullity. The Sanskrit word for zero is shunya, which means "puffed up, hollow, empty." The zero stands for emptiness suggestive of potentiality. The discovery of the mathematical zero concurred with the emptiness of prajna-intuition in India around 200 BC. Both signify polar opposition between being and nonbeing. Zero is that which contains all possible polarised pairs such as (+1, -1), (+2, -2), etc. It is the collection of all mutually cancelling pairs of forward and backward movements. Put it another way, zero is fundamental to all existence. Because of it, everything is possible. Zero is the additive identity, the focal point of all numbers; without it, numbers cannot be created. India alone, among the great civilisations of antiquity, was able to fathom the depth of emptiness and willing to accept its consequences in mathematics.
Following the introduction of the Hindu-Arabic numerals into Western culture, zero became a number that was used in calculations like any other number. Consequently, it lost some part of its original meaning, namely the part that suggests potentiality. Today, most mathematicians do not associate the notion of emptiness with zero, but with the empty set, which is a construct of set theory. A set is a collection of objects or numbers. For example, the set { 1, 2, 3, 5, 8 } is a set of numbers containing five elements; it is therefore said to have the "cardinality" of 5. The empty set { } is a collection that contains nothing and has the cardinality 0. The mathematician John von Neumann (1923) invented a method, known as von Neumann hierarchy, which can be employed to generate the natural numbers from the empty set as follows:
Step 0: { } (empty set)
Step 1: { { } } (set containing the empty set)
Step 2: { { }, { { } } } (set containing previous two sets)
Step 3: { { }, { { } } , { { }, { { } } } } (set containing previous three sets)
Step 4: { { }, { { } } , { { }, { { } } }, { { }, { { } } , { { }, { { } } } } } (etc.)
This sequence is obtained by iterating a functor that creates a new set from the union of the preceding two sets, thus generating sets with the cardinalities 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ad infinitum. In less mathematical terms, the principle can be described as follows: Beginning with emptiness (step 0), we observe emptiness. Through the act of observing we create an entity containing emptiness (step 1). Now we perceive emptiness, as well as an entity. From the combination of the former two we create another entity by observation, which is different from the first entity (step 2). This process is repeated again and again. Interestingly, if we define suitable operations on the obtained sets based on union and intersection, the cardinalities of the resulting sets behave just like natural numbers being added and subtracted. The sequence is therefore isomorphic to the natural numbers - a stunningly beautiful example of something from nothing."
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/emptiness.html
I've actually read that before, thanks for the contribution
karma is merely the conditioned mind that clings onto a belief. to make the infinite finite.
to go beyond karma is to accept what is prior to the belief. what is that? what is that which see's these words? do the eyes assert and negate?
to accept everything as it is, is to accept the infinite. acceptance is being.
everything else is wishing for something else, thus suffering.
zero needs one, two and three, etc. what is form without emptiness and emptiness without form?
what is suffering without the ceasation of suffering and the ceasation of suffering without the suffering?
Reminds me of the words of a Zen Master "Human beings know how to know, but they don't know how to don't know, therefore they suffer."
My answer/opinion : Reincarnation is just a game that the 'Chaos'( I can't really explain this, but think of it, as God) plays in the whole universe. You have 'Intelligence' and 'Motion' , the prime attributes of sentient beings ( my opinion; my thoughts) taking 'faces' ( physical forms) in a pattern dictated by the laws of physics. So the numbers won't matter ( supposing that the whole population of sentient beings multiplies in the same manner as bacteria) , only the game ( the evolution of 'Intelligence' and 'Motion') matters.
P.S.: This opinion of mine, this thought, came during a meditation session, which I did before going to sleep, and it might sound stupid, Sci-Fi, mumbo-jumbo; do not take it seriously.
When consciousness is within cyclic existence, manifestations of form can appear to be growing ad infinitum, but once the consciousness escapes cyclic existence, it realizes phenomenal existence never was; it was merely a projection of mind manifesting through the "I" thought, due to karma.
The beings observed while within cyclic existence, like your mother, may contintue on in cyclic existence after you've escaped the cycles of rebirth; to those beings the worlds may appear to grow ad infinitum, but when they escape they'll realize it never grew and it never diminished.
In other words, the balloon may appear to be getting larger and larger, ad infinitum, but once you awaken you realize the balloon was never expanding. Or, in another realm, you may think the balloon is shrinking, ad infinitum, but once you awaken you realize the balloon was never shrinking; it was karma manifesting, through the "I" thought, that made it appear the balloon was expanding or shrinking. In this way, reality escapes common sense mathematics.
I recently read "Buddhahood Without Meditation: Refining Apparent Phenomena" (Nang-Jang) Dudjom Linpga. This work seems to suggest apparent phenomena is an illusion within awareness.
Oh, I see what you're getting at now. Okay. Well, with Hinduism, at least, they believe there are infinite planes of existence with an infinite amount of beings. Its a hard concept to grasp, so I can't really elaborate on it. Not sure how Buddhists feel about it, though.
I've recently been wondering, "Well, even if a Buddha has a rebirth, he is technically always in a state of Nirvana, and although he is being reborn, it is not Samsara to him. So, could a Buddha technically be reborn while still being in a state of Nirvana (much like a Bodhisattva, but it being unintentional)? Or does that whole pesky Karma thing get in the way of this idea?"
In mahayana buddhism a liberated mind can deliberatly choose to be born out of compassion in order to help others.
and no end to ignorance.
There is no old age and death,
and no end to old age and death.
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.
There is no attainment of wisdom,
and no wisdom to attain."
-Heart Sutra
I highly suggest reading the heart sutra.
It isn't something to be disected or interpreted. The Heart Sutra is very straight forward.
becoming will always exist, but it is not me. this is the liberation.
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/12693/bodhicitta-but-no-bodhisattva/p1
Also, the Bodhisattva has not attained nirvana. So yes, they are still subject to birth, old age, and death.
The Buddha, however, has attained nirvana. As such, the Buddha is no longer subject to birth, old age, and death.
@taiyaki
Your understanding of the Heart Sutra is incorrect. You are attached to the sphere of nothingness which the Buddha declared is not nirvana.
Becoming has its cessation. How does becoming meet its cessation?
There is the case where a monk contemplates thus: This is becoming, becoming has attachment as it's requisite condiiton, the cessation of attachment would mean the cessation of becoming, the path leading to the cessation of becoming is the noble 8-fold path.
the sensation of love arises and falls.
there is no clinging because it is seen as impermanent, not satisfying, lack of any self essence.
so a buddha never loves?
a buddha loves, but since there is no attachment it is felt fully. it comes and it goes.
i'm not attaching to anything. i am just speaking of the obvious.
nirvana is non attachment and samsara is attachment.
love still arises and falls.
there is no suffering because there is no I, MY, ME, or rather no clinging.
When you don't cling, does shit still arise?
Do you still get hungry? Sure, but like all things it's not mine, nor is it satisfying, nor does it have any permanence. it is just an empty sensation that is unlocatable and ungraspable.
nirvana is the end of becoming as you said. becoming itself doesn't end. it is clinging to the already existing becoming.
the world doesn't end, it's just the world as we "think" ends.
In the Nang-Jang, it says that even good intentions, like that of a Bodhisattva, will bring about rebirth. So, the Bodhisattva is not free of cyclic existence until even compassionate desires are quenched.
I agree with his statement that compassionate "desires" will condition further becoming.
However compassion as expressed by the enlightened Buddha is not an expression of desire. It is simply compassion. His understanding of the suffering of others is why he preaches the dharma for their benefit.
Upon the Buddha's parinirvana, the final source of suffering, specifically his body and life, meet their cessation as well. The Buddha is beyond birth and is not reborn after parinirvana.
If you can keep on looking at a new-born babe without a break for ten years you will not perceive any change. The baby born at 10 a.m. appears just the same at 11 a.m. or at 12 noon. Each moment shows no difference from the next. One condition merges into the next so imperceptibly. It is a becoming, a continuous process of becoming. Close your eyes to this process and see the baby once a month. then only will you perceive a change. Then only can you speak in terms of "baby" and "boy" and not in terms of a process or a becoming.
The baby boy becomes an old man. They are different. By giving this "person" a name eg. John there is an illusion of an entity. By convention John was born on such a date, he grew old and died on such a date. In reality John the old man was never born, only the baby John. John the baby never died, only the old man John. Will the real John please stand up!
In terms of ultimate truth no one was born and no one died.
Everything is becoming. This is a universal process, a constant flux. It is when we miss the continuity of action that we speak in terms of things (atta/self) rather than processes or becomings.
Existence of beings is dependent on clinging to an idea of a self/being.
People come on and off the stage of life in groups, sometimes larger, sometimes smaller, united by their karmic issues. There is a lag time with rebirth, it is not usually an immediate thing. There are many on earth at this time who have not been here for a long time. Nearly every culture on earth has legends of the great flood... and of a pre-flood world as populated and more technologically advanced than our world of today. So how do you figure that there must somehow be "more" entities in existence now than there were then... when you know nothing of "then"?
Human beings are pan-dimensional entities. Birth does not create them any more than the act of walking onstage creates an actor in a play.
But if you really must add up all the waves in the ocean and make sure that the crests are balanced with the troughs....
eventually you will begin to notice...
that it is all one ocean after all
and that Buddhism is about learning how to swim in it.